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  #21  
Old 05-20-2005, 12:47 AM
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I enjoy her fits of apoplectic rage. Good times!

I didn't watch Enterprise for a long time, I started catching episodes again this season. There was definite potential, despite the brutal fan alienation, hideous promotional campaign, and general other mishandling by UPN. UGH! UPN must die. I have a nagging suspicion they may yet find a way to kill Veronica Mars.
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  #22  
Old 05-20-2005, 01:04 AM
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Really? I hated it. Hated it with a passion before unbeknowenst to man. Hated it with the heat of a million suns, the really hot ones. Hated it like Kevin Eubanks hates Jay Leno. Several times during the episode, blood shot out of my nose and I passed out, just from the sheer power of it's suck. It made 'Threshold' look good. My new kitten was sitting with me, while I watched it, and watching it killed her. Killed her, killed her dead.

TaTV kills kittens. Kills them dead.
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  #23  
Old 05-20-2005, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nan
UPN must die. I have a nagging suspicion they may yet find a way to kill Veronica Mars.
How about putting it up against Lost next season? 'Cause that's what they're doing.
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Old 05-20-2005, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kira
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Originally Posted by Nan
UPN must die. I have a nagging suspicion they may yet find a way to kill Veronica Mars.
How about putting it up against Lost next season? 'Cause that's what they're doing.
And It'll be up against 'The West Wing' as well.

They're also moving WWE to the friday night death slot.

Ah! Smell the odor of a rotting network.
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Old 05-20-2005, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kira
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nan
UPN must die. I have a nagging suspicion they may yet find a way to kill Veronica Mars.
How about putting it up against Lost next season? 'Cause that's what they're doing.
Well, at least UPN still has America's Next Top Model. Not that I watch it or anything. Nope, it's not a guilty pleasure to watch to see what happens in showbiz, to see others suffering at mean comments. Nope, not at all. I mean, it's not like I'm in theatre and enjoy hearing how cute-thoat even "nice" judges like Tyra are. Nope, not at all.
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  #26  
Old 05-20-2005, 04:36 AM
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Well, West Wing is being butchered by John Wells (ptooie!) and is moving to Sundays, and the plus side is that VM will have ANTM as a lead-in. And it's been pointed out by the brains of the TWoP forum that VM doesn't need to hold a candle to Lost, just kick the WB's ass. Taking it away from its main demo competition, One Tree Hill, is probably a good thing, not to mention getting it away from Scrubs, The Amazing Race, and House.

And hey, it could be worse: they could have given it the Friday Slot of Doom as they did for Enterprise.
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  #27  
Old 05-20-2005, 09:21 AM
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I thought of the 5MV forums when I saw this comic... all those of you unfamiliar with "It's Walky!" and other David Willis webcomics, all you need to know is that the guy in the first panel is known for hating everybody and being a sadist.

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20050520.html
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  #28  
Old 05-20-2005, 06:37 PM
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ok so I'm back from being computerless for a month and I have to talk about this episode.

I read the spoilers when they first came out about this eppy and I was OUTRAGED! Yes I used all caps. I couldn't believe they'd kill off Trip. Just couldn't believe it. Then I heard that this was really a recycled script from the year before. The news just got worse. TnT were broken up! Yikes! And of course the fact that two TNG actors got most of the storyline of an ENT finale. That made me angry. Because this is Enterprise's finale. Their night to shine and it's taken over by Riker and Troi? I love TNG don't get me wrong, but the Pegasus episode? Are B&B serious? That episode barely registers in my memory and that's the episode? Now when DS9 did Trials and Tribbleations that was a great eppie. They went into an old TOS episode that we all recognize and love. It was great, but it wasn't their finale. I read in a TV Guide article that Marina Sirtis said "they don't have a great last scene like we did. We had that poker scene where we all said goodbye. That was a real farewell." See even the guest actress knew that this episode wasn't the best way to end the series. I'm not a B&B basher because they did a great job, but Coto did an awesome job this season and I've loved every episode he's written. Of course it helps that I'm a T/Ter and he saved that ship for all us TnTers! But the ending just kills TnT and for no reason. This whole episode is maddening. But Terra Prime should have been the finale. That's where most of the character development was happening. Travis was even thinking about moving on. The end of Terra Prime was so pure and everything that Trek is about. Everything Enterprise is about. Not just the Trip and T'Pol stuff, but it really showed how far they'd come. In the first episode Trip hated Vulcans and T'Pol wouldn't shake Trip's hand or even call him Trip. In Demons/Terra Prime she only calls him Trip and they have this baby together. Then in that last scene she's in her Vulcan robes, like the way they first met. Only now they are holding hands with the IDIC enfolded between them. It speaks volumes. How much they have overcome and how much Enterprise has overcome. That to me is how I want to remember Enterprise's finale. Not a TNG episode addition.
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  #29  
Old 05-20-2005, 08:20 PM
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Okay, I think I'm ready to post my thoughts on TATV. I still haven't read an extermely positive review. Maybe they don't exist.

First off, I don't care that Trip died. I don't care if all the characters survive, or if one dies, or if the ship explodes just as it's about to do that final warp off into the sunset (though I would've laughed at that). Why don't I care? Because it's the finale, it's over. It's not like the show was going to continue and so we'd miss that person's presence in the future. This attitude also basically characterizes my view of Wesley's death on Angel's finale. Yes, both deaths were unnecessary in one sense, but, hey, why not?

Secondly, since I'm not a shipper, I don't care that Trip and T'Pol didn't stay together. To some extent, I could really see the baby thing being part of their breakup. It becomes harder for them to be intimate because they can't forget the baby (yes, the baby was only around for two episodes, but it's obvious both parents were very attached to her). Things become uncomfortable and awkward, so they become more distant until they're relationship reverts to being friends and coworkers.

Third, I'm not concerned with the concept of Riker and Troi being in the finale. In fact, I kind of liked the retrospective aspect. Like Zeke, I felt a B5 connection, but my thoughts fell much more on "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars", which was the fourth season finale which did a look back at the impact of Babylon 5 from 100, 500, 1,000, and 1,000,000 years in the future. To some extent, I might have appreciated it if TATV had been more like TDoFS, having multiple future perspectives, and letting one part be Riker's subplot. Oh well.

My delay in coming up with an opinion of this episode came from my failure to classify it. Normally when I watch an ENT episode I try to evaluate both on the basis of the episode's own story and also how the episode fits into the larger continuity of the season, the series, and all Trek. Thus, "Regeneration" is a very good episode viewed independently, but it falls apart when looking at the larger Trek continuity.

However, this episode mingled those two categories a LOT. I spent probably half the episode trying to make up my mind if I was watching an ENT episode with TNG elements or a TNG episode with ENT elements. I'm still not clear on what it was, though I lean toward the latter. So not knowing how to classify it, I wasn't sure if I should view it within the context of ENT S4, TNG S7, both, or neither.

I think it would've been nice to see people promoted or in different roles or maybe not even on board anymore. Even though TMP kept Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov in their normal positions, it still had Kirk, Spock, and McCoy in different places than we left them.

As for the episode overall, I'm pretty okay with it, but I'm not sure how much I like it as a series finale. As has been pointed out, the focus wasn't really on the crew as a whole, their evolution over the years, and the resolution of the storylines created (things I would expect in a series finale). Instead it was about Trip, Riker, and the birth of the Federation, in that order. And it seems like it wouldn't have take too much to shift the focus on to the other things as well.

So in conclusion: It's not the travesty everyone seems to make it out to be, but it's not the best thing ever either.
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  #30  
Old 05-20-2005, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
This attitude also basically characterizes my view of Wesley's death on Angel's finale.
GAH! (I suppose I really should have got round to watching S5 by now, though)

I wouldn't have a problem with Trip's death if it hadn't felt like someone had gone "okay, let's kill Trip". It wasn't well-handled at all. It's hard to even say it served a purpose in the plot, because the whole thing felt so pointless.

I'm looking forward to Zeke's article, because I really want to know how he can try to defend this.
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  #31  
Old 05-21-2005, 01:08 AM
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I wouldn't have been so disgusted with Trip's death if it hadn't felt like someone had gone "Okay, our finale needs punch. Who can we kill off?"
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  #32  
Old 05-21-2005, 01:12 AM
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Maybe the Beebs thought we would like the arbitrary death of the most popular character? Seems reasonable to me.
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Old 05-21-2005, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kira
Quote:
On second thought, it doesn't matter when -- you've still missed some great episodes. I love Keckler, but she's not the best gauge of episode quality for people like us.
Actually... yeah, she's a pretty good gauge for me, as is most of TWoP.
I like many things about TWoP, but they made a dangerous mistake when they started thinking of themselves as serious reviewers, and we're dangerously mistaken to buy it. At first the point of TWoP was to recap with hatred (which is sort of what we do, but it's all in fun here). But look at them now -- some shows get recappers who hate their guts, but others, like VM (taking your word for it), get recappers who take them seriously. The result is that fans of a show like VM can now point to TWoP -- basically a joke site -- as evidence that their show is high art and everything else is crap. TWoP is great for writing fivers or catching up on an episode you missed, but it's not remotely reliable as critical commentary.

Besides, they pay people to recount what happens on reality shows. I don't think even making reality shows is worth money.

Quote:
I wouldn't have been so disgusted with Trip's death if it hadn't felt like someone had gone "Okay, our finale needs punch. Who can we kill off?"
Everything's symbolic. Trip represents the Star Trek spirit at its core -- the sheer joy of exploration. The official trimmings like Archer's speech are remembered, but it's people like Trip that matter, and centuries later it's he that Riker learns from. What he represents will never die, which is why we get a scene with Trip alive so soon after his death scene. And now I'm really stealing material from my article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek
First off, I don't care that Trip died. I don't care if all the characters survive, or if one dies, or if the ship explodes just as it's about to do that final warp off into the sunset (though I would've laughed at that). Why don't I care? Because it's the finale, it's over.
I disagree here because the end of one story about a group of characters is not the end of all stories about those characters, even if Paramount never returns to them. Trip's and Wesley's deaths place a limit on anything that can be done with them in the future. When there's a greater purpose that outweighs that, I can get behind killing an interesting character, but not when it's gratuitous. Kira's comment on Trip's death is exactly how I felt, and still feel, about Wesley's. (Is there some reason he couldn't have survived until the "they all die" ending at least?)
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  #34  
Old 05-21-2005, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kira
And hey, it could be worse: they could have given it the Friday Slot of Doom as they did for Enterprise.
And Third Watch. Although an hour later Friday Slot of Doom, but obviously it was a Friday Slot of Doom. Yeeeeep.
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  #35  
Old 05-21-2005, 08:58 AM
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Yeah, the 'let's just kill someone for the heck of it' feeling grabbed me too. And I read evay's article and pretty much agreed with all of it.

It felt like a TNG episode. And I've never liked TNG. I've never liked Riker. I tolerated Troi on Voyager in small doses because it was Voyager. But I think that's another reason I hated it.

I don't know. If it was a coverup I could deal with it. Then the message would be 'Starfleet can't do coverups.'

Also, I think we gypped out of the speech. Archer isn't good at speechifying, but since Trip died, we could've at least gotten something.

Did anything not piss me off about the episode? Um....the one Trip/Malcolm scene. And yeah. That's it.

Gah. I don't want to think about it anymore. It's like they said 'okay, we know the fans love the show. This is the last episode they're ever going to get. Let's make them hate it as much as possible.'
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  #36  
Old 05-21-2005, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaverickZer0
Gah. I don't want to think about it anymore. It's like they said 'okay, we know the fans love the show. This is the last episode they're ever going to get. Let's make them hate it as much as possible.'
Haha! You know I've been thinking about that Valentine comment they made awhile ago. After watching this episode, good intentions or not, I had no idea what they could be thinking...or smoking for that matter. Valentine? Really?

But then it occured to me; They know how much Trek fans love to bitch about every tiny little thing, endlessly. And so they gave us an episode we can bitch about until the end of time. That's what they meant by 'Valentine', it wasn't crappy writing or a bad idea for a plot at all!
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  #37  
Old 05-21-2005, 06:59 PM
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The result is that fans of a show like VM can now point to TWoP -- basically a joke site -- as evidence that their show is high art and everything else is crap. TWoP is great for writing fivers or catching up on an episode you missed, but it's not remotely reliable as critical commentary.
I totally disagree. Sure, a lot of TWoP is snark, but it's fairly rare that I read a scathing recap and don't feel the show deserved it for lazy, anvillicious writing or some such thing. It's not the be all and end all as a measuring stick for television, certainly, but I do think that they have an appreciation for strong writing and television that's well thought-out and executed and when they start praising a show I pay attention.
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  #38  
Old 05-22-2005, 12:27 PM
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I have to go with Zeke on this one, although I admit my source is two years out of date. I loved TWoP for S1 ENT. As S2 ENT continued, Keckler got nastier and more vicious until by the end of the year I felt like I had to click the mouse with asbestos gloves. When she did a summer extra recap of a TOS episode and called Kirk filthy names three times on the first page, I said the hell with this, I'm outta here.

To me that's not appropriate snarking at bad writing, it's just seeing how extreme the bashing can go. Of course ENT had writing problems. But ENT also had some good material in the first two years, and Keckler refused to acknowledge it for the most part. And she constantly whomped on Trip for absolutely no reason. (I know she's converted now, but her ranting was unjustified regardless.)

Some people like nasty-funny. Some people like "Fear Factor" too. It's just not my style.
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