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View Poll Results: If you were/are registered as a U. S. voter, who would/did you choose?
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  #121  
Old 11-10-2004, 01:21 PM
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Xeroc: If we are going with the scientific definition of life, we can not refute that the fetus is alive right after conception. It is, after all, a cell with the same genetic code as the fully-grown human, and meets all criteria. It lives. To me, asking where life begins is nonsense; the question (as portrayed by Zeke) is: where can we speak of a meaningful correlation between this infant life and the finished baby? Heartbeat? Neural activity? Recognisable presence of all essential organs? That is, in my humble opinion, the great question.

Though a bit unscientific, if we portray the development of the child as a sort of evolution from one-celled organism to primate on a smaller scale, at which level of complexity do we recognise that this is humanoid life?

Wowbagger: Define independant. Is it being geneticall different from it's host organism? Then it's conception, yeah. Is it having an own circulatory system? Early pregnancy. Recogniseably human? Late pregnancy. Physically disconnected from the mother? Birth. Able to care for itself? Eh...I think we're looking at a few *years* after birth with progressing silliness of the argument.

I'll admit that my knowledge of the legal situation in Germany is not the best, so I'll get back to that after a bit of research.

I'm not saying that we'll have so-and-so many dead women when abortion becomes illegal. My point is that sure, outlawing it will deter many, but also drive a lot to backalley abortions. Whether they all die from them is arguably not important; the point is that you're going to have abortions either way, so why waste money and effort on making them *less* safe?

How do you seperate an abortion of convenience from all the others?

Valium: Better sex ed? Definately. I'm all for reasonable, educated people taking responsibility for their own actions. I apply the same reasoning to firearms: If you want to have them, YOU are responsible for them. No loaded revolver under the pillow. Get a safe, take courses, teach your children how to safely handle firearms.

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  #122  
Old 11-10-2004, 02:00 PM
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On firearms: I personally like the British system...at least in theory.....it goes like this....People must have gun licenses to own guns, be registered with the NRA (National Rifle Association - at least I think you do for rifles...), etc etc....in Newfoundland they have no armed police and almost no gun crime.
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  #123  
Old 11-10-2004, 05:56 PM
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Sentience, as i believe, is the key. Thatīs what i refered to when i said "alive". And thats the endless debate, because it is very difficult to determine even scientifically when a fetus has sentience. But if you could, it wouldnīt be a murder to practice abortion. That fetus would only potencially be a baby. Sorry if it sounds rude, but saying that abortion in that stage is murder would be like saying that masturbation is a genocide.

As men, it is difficult for most of us to picture what it is like to get pregnant and to hav an abortion. As someone said before me, you should think a little from the "mother"īs perspective, maybe you can understand how so many abortions are performed. Better sex education would be great to prevent many of these, but here we start debating about religion and wether or not sex education should be mandatory at schools. Thatīs been a debate for years in my country, and when the church is always fighting against sex education...itīs a pity.

ps1: whatīs with nov. 11?

ps2: iīm from argentina, but iīm not leandro. Nice argentinian url! You can read my fivers translations to spanish too if you like!
  #124  
Old 11-10-2004, 07:16 PM
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Masturbation, no. At that point nothing has happened. At conception, however, the foetus (and this is the correct spelling, damn it :P) has been started. Of the seven scientific requirements for a being to be deemed alive, at least one is being fulfilled:growth. If you don't agree on these grounds, think of it like this: Think how many great minds could have been destroyed by now by abortion. We could have had people who proved Einstein wrong, or any number of geniuses, but we've killed them off. Just a thinking point there.

1) November the 11th is the date of Armistice day - it marks the end of the First World War. There are two minutes of silence (certainly in Britain) to remember the dead. On the nearest Sunday there is a mass and ceremony at the local memorial, and at the cenotaph in London, to remember those who died both in World War I and in all conflicts which have happened since. therefore it is a very important date to be revered and kept, even if you aren't of a religious persuasion.

no. 2 I cant comment on - I don't speak spanish
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  #125  
Old 11-10-2004, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Valium
Masturbation, no. At that point nothing has happened. At conception, however, the foetus (and this is the correct spelling, damn it :P) has been started. Of the seven scientific requirements for a being to be deemed alive, at least one is being fulfilled:growth. If you don't agree on these grounds, think of it like this: Think how many great minds could have been destroyed by now by abortion. We could have had people who proved Einstein wrong, or any number of geniuses, but we've killed them off. Just a thinking point there.
What i mean is, if you take your argument to the extreme, is the same with masturbation. Is sound silly, but extremes sound silly. And I believe that banning all abortions is an extreme. (sorry for not spelling right foetus)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Valium
1) November the 11th is the date of Armistice day - it marks the end of the First World War. There are two minutes of silence (certainly in Britain) to remember the dead. On the nearest Sunday there is a mass and ceremony at the local memorial, and at the cenotaph in London, to remember those who died both in World War I and in all conflicts which have happened since. therefore it is a very important date to be revered and kept, even if you aren't of a religious persuasion.
Oh I respect that. So, tomorrow i will keep two minutes of silence for all those who have died in WWI, WWII, and especially for all the british and argentinian who have died in the 1982 Falklands/Malvinas conflict.
  #126  
Old 11-10-2004, 09:43 PM
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Thank you. It is traditionally held at 11:00 - the hour at which the Armistice was signed.
I didn't quite catch on that you were taking the extreme side of that argument...sorry....still, if we go that far, surely breathing is depriving others of air.....and then we go on to is it right to kill yourself, and the whole thing goes round again. :wink:
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  #127  
Old 11-10-2004, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marplanauta
Is sound silly, but extremes sound silly. And I believe that banning all abortions is an extreme.
Yes, it's an extreme -- banning ALL of something is an extreme by definition. If we ban ALL car bombing, EVER, that's an extreme. But there are some things that just aren't ever okay to do. That's what we have laws for.

(I don't take an absolute extreme position on abortion, but I'm as close as anyone generally gets: I feel it should be illegal unless the mother's life is in danger. Obviously in that case abortion isn't just okay but the right thing to do; one death is tragic but it's better than two.)
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  #128  
Old 11-10-2004, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatac
Xeroc: If we are going with the scientific definition of life, we can not refute that the fetus is alive right after conception. It is, after all, a cell with the same genetic code as the fully-grown human, and meets all criteria. It lives. To me, asking where life begins is nonsense; the question (as portrayed by Zeke) is: where can we speak of a meaningful correlation between this infant life and the finished baby? Heartbeat? Neural activity? Recognisable presence of all essential organs? That is, in my humble opinion, the great question.

Though a bit unscientific, if we portray the development of the child as a sort of evolution from one-celled organism to primate on a smaller scale, at which level of complexity do we recognise that this is humanoid life?
I don't think you understood my post. Especially the astericked part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeroc
*Note: Biologically, the cell is alive even before it is fertilized, but so are the millions of bacteria floating around in our air.
I was not talking scientifically, I was talking about when It's considered "immoral" to destroy. As we obviously don't care about the millions of bacteria in our air, but they're just as alive and unique as the fertilized egg. They're not human, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Valium
the foetus (and this is the correct spelling, damn it )
Quote:
Originally Posted by marplanauta
(sorry for not spelling right foetus)
Actually, Valium, foetus is primarily used in Britian. The most popular (and still correct!) spelling is fetus, while both are valid.
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  #129  
Old 11-11-2004, 07:31 AM
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Xeroc: The cell is alive before fertilization, but does not have it's "final" DNA yet. I don't think we need to argue this far backwards.

And complexity is an issue. If it's wrong to kill something just because it has human DNA, then we don't need to discuss abortion. The big question is not whether the fetus has human DNA - it does, from the beginning.

Morality must have some founding in facts. I can't argue that I only support abortion until third month because three is a nice number (though it is) - I can argue this based on the development of the fetus constituting recognisable humanoid life. That's the crux of the matter to me.

Valium: Or maybe we've killed dozens of potential Stalins. We don't know either way.

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  #130  
Old 11-11-2004, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke
(I don't take an absolute extreme position on abortion, but I'm as close as anyone generally gets: I feel it should be illegal unless the mother's life is in danger.
I wonder if you would feel the same if you could actually get pregnant...and don't say you would because you have no idea if you would or not. You would want your view to be the same, but I suspect if the situation ever came up, and you were pregnant and REALLY didn't want to be, you would feel somewhat different.

Personally I don't think men should have the right to decide anything about abortion. That is unbelievable controversial I know, but to me thats like letting someone from, say France, who knows f*** all about America, be president.
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  #131  
Old 11-11-2004, 08:43 AM
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Uh-huh, as opposed to who's in office now?

In my opinion, this boils down to the whole opinion thing. I believe there should be the right for anyone to choose. It isn't technically murder if the brain is undeveloped (and, if you're into New Age, before the soul is introduced).

On the other side of the fence, it could constitute murder if done too late.

There is no right or wrong answer. Ultimately the choice should probably be in the hands of the mother.
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  #132  
Old 11-11-2004, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaverickZer0
Uh-huh, as opposed to who's in office now?
Wow, I missed a really obvious Bush joke there :wink:

I agree, there is no right or wrong answer, and it has to be up to the individual mother. No one has the right to tell you what to do with your own body.
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  #133  
Old 11-11-2004, 12:59 PM
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I concur.

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  #134  
Old 11-11-2004, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke
(I don't take an absolute extreme position on abortion, but I'm as close as anyone generally gets: I feel it should be illegal unless the mother's life is in danger.
I wonder if you would feel the same if you could actually get pregnant...and don't say you would because you have no idea if you would or not. You would want your view to be the same, but I suspect if the situation ever came up, and you were pregnant and REALLY didn't want to be, you would feel somewhat different.

Personally I don't think men should have the right to decide anything about abortion. That is unbelievable controversial I know, but to me thats like letting someone from, say France, who knows f*** all about America, be president.
Arguments don't have gender; people do. The fact that Zeke is a man has nothing to do with the arguments he puts forth. In fact, wouldn't it make sense to assume that Zeke's argument is actually more objective since he's not as personally close to the issue? Also, a man is required to make a pregnancy happen. And men pay tax dollars that fund abortions, and men are responsible for rearing children they've fathered that aren't aborted. Basically, it doesn't make sense to say that you won't listen to an opinion just because of who it comes from. No, we wouldn't let a Frenchman be President of the US, but that doesn't mean the Frenchman's opinion on who should be President is inherently wrong, does it?

If you still think he shouldn't have a say, then I'll say I agree with him, and I have a uterus to go along with my opinion.
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  #135  
Old 11-11-2004, 05:19 PM
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No, and I didn't mean to imply that at all. No one's opinion is wrong but I think it's easier for men to make a decision considering it physically isn't their body that is affected.

But that's just my opinion :wink:
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  #136  
Old 11-11-2004, 05:29 PM
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well, thatīs my opinion too, i said it before. Itīs easier for us as men to take the moral road, but if you see things from the "mother"īs point of view itīs not so easy
  #137  
Old 11-11-2004, 08:17 PM
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I'm going to warn you: once I get started talking about abortion, it's not something I'm likely to let go

Basically, my position is this: abortion is an irrelevant issue -- at least in terms of the way politicians talk about it. Both liberals and conservatives are to blame for this. It's an easy political tool to manipulate. You mention abortion, and people have instinctual, gut-reaction answers to the question. It's an incredibly easy issue to politicize. And people fall for it because almost everyone has an opinion on it.

What people need to do is stop having such a narrow focus on simply abortion, and look at the bigger picture. Yes, a nation with a high rate of abortions has a problem. But this problem is just a symptom of an even bigger problem that liberals and conservatives simply fail to address.

The reason the abortion rate in the United States is so high is because The United States has the highest rate of teen pregnancies in the developed world. Here's a pretty good source on that, if you need one. Yes, the U.S. has a high teen abortion rate. But it's also got a high teen birth rate. You can't just look at abortions, because that's a very narrow focus on a very widespread problem. Teens have abortions because teens get pregnant. If we reduce the number of teenage pregnancies in a country, we effectively reduce the abortion rate AND the teen birth rate -- a problem very few politicians seem to care anything about (because we all know an epidemic of teens having babies would be much better than an epidemic of teens having abortions :roll

Simply making abortion illegal, though a high minded endeavour, wouldn't accomplish squat in terms of reducing the teen birth rate. Okay, abortions aren't a good thing. But are teens with babies a good thing? I'm not going to say which is a better thing because we shouldn't have to. It's presumptious of us to simply combat teen birth with making abortions more widely available, or combating abortions so that more teens have kids. It's a pointless judgement call between two not-good answers, and unfortunately they're the only two arguments politicians ever make.

What we need is to reduce teen pregnancies. Fighting simply one or the other is pointless. Fight both by reducing the source of the problem in the first place. The reason countries like Belgium have a teen pregnancy rate of about 17 per 1000 (I know that's not in that link, but it's in a book I'm holding -- you'll have to trust me) compared to the U.S.'s 84 or so is because of education and availability of contraception. Contraception is stigmatized in the U.S. Sex education exists, but it's mostly about anatomy and lessons about abstinance (which, though affective among teens who follow it, is completely irrelevant to the many, many who won't). Teenagers need to be taught about condoms, birth control, etc. and have these things available. All this talk lately about pharmacists who refuse to dispense the pill -- Does anyone really see that as a step in the right direction? The United States has a very severe problem on its hands in the form of teen pregnancy, and it's not recognized. People merely attack abortion because it's a much more clear-cut, right-or-wrong type of issue.

I don't like abortion either, but the way politicians, religious leaders, and organizations like planned parenthood talk about it, the issue is absolutely irrelevent. You can't just focus on abortion. It's not that simple. And ultimately, it's probably the worst way to fight it.
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  #138  
Old 11-11-2004, 08:55 PM
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Well said, IJD.
  #139  
Old 11-11-2004, 09:32 PM
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Hmm....and I bought into all the hype,ijdgaf.

I'm such a tool.






You're all tools too, though, so don't think you all are getting off the hook!
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Old 11-11-2004, 09:37 PM
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But really, I do agree with that. I see no problem with teenagers being sexually active, because they're designed that way, what with the hormones raging and all, but them being careful is the issue. Not to bash on anyone that's religious, but a lot of the bad press for contraception comes from religion. I live in Oklahoma, and we have one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the nation (Apparently there's nothing else to do around here, lol), but it's also one of the most religious. I have a lot of religious friends, that are sexually active, but don't usually use protection, sometimes because of what they've been taught in their church. Churches need to realize that we all can't be chaste monks, using our pent up tension to put out an obscene amount of vaguely erotic illuminated manuscripts....Holy crap,I think I just figured out the Middle Ages.
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