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Old 02-04-2020, 10:48 PM
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Default Nate the Great fixes Voyager

Before I start the actual entries, I'd like to talk about my ground rules. If anyone has a suggestion for more, feel free.


* The initial shuttle compliment varies by source, but I'm going to average things out and be generous and state that there are two Type 8's (the larger ones, crew of three or four) and four Type 9's (the smaller ones, crew of one or two). Plus Neelix's ship the Baxial, Delta Flyer, Alice, etc. I'll assume that the short construction time of the Delta Flyer was due to the urgent circumstances and most of the ship's energy and computational power was devoted to the task. I'll be generous and say that under normal circumstances Voyager can replace a shuttle every six months. I will be maintaining a shuttle tally in episodes that contain them.

* Photon torpedoes are replaceable. It was stupid to assume that they weren't.
* Janeway is sane. Period. She's not the Mary Sue that Jeri Taylor wants her to be, but she's rational. She's not burdened by guilt because...
* Using the Caretaker array to return home wasn't an option, and Janeway did not strand the crew in the Delta Quadrant. Nobody accuses her of this.

* The Maquis will be a continual plotline. Not every episode, but often. Furthermore, they aren't anti-Federation because the Starfleet officers keep trying to make them follow the rules of how to operate a starship correctly, they're anti-Federation because they feel the Federation abandoned them. Which the Federation didn't, the DMZ residents at this point consist solely of colonists who abandoned their Federation citizenship in order to stay on their planets. Which was stupid as I've covered elsewhere, but I won't repeat my argument here.

* Janeway doesn't have to be the main character every episode. If a given episode premise can be done equally well by one of the others, it will be.
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:31 AM
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Please tell me you'll fix Pinocchio's characterization.

And C/7. KILL IT WITH FIRE.
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Old 02-05-2020, 01:05 PM
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Pinocchio?



And yes, C/7 doesn't exist. Neither does D/7, as a matter of fact. It's better when Doc has feelings for her that she doesn't notice or reciprocate.
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Old 02-05-2020, 06:55 PM
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Pinocchio?
Chakotay.
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Old 02-05-2020, 09:51 PM
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Of course. People seem to think that Chakotay was as inexperienced in Starfleet as the others, when he had the highest rank when he left. He's a competent leader. Furthermore, if the occasion calls for a counselor he'll be first at bat, just like what happened in the series a few times.



Oh, and I'm going to be outright chucking an episode here and there that just can't be redeemed. "Fury" comes to mind immediately.



And the whole water shortage thing in the Kazon years was just dumb. It's enough that Voyager has replicators and they don't. Any warp-capable ship can find planets with free water. Don't tell me that every planet in Kazon/Vidiian space is short of water!
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate the Great View Post
Oh, and I'm going to be outright chucking an episode here and there that just can't be redeemed. "Fury" comes to mind immediately.
Actually, I didn't mind "Fury", but I'm a sucker for time travel episodes, especially ones that play with their own history. Blame the Whovian in me.

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And the whole water shortage thing in the Kazon years was just dumb. It's enough that Voyager has replicators and they don't. Any warp-capable ship can find planets with free water. Don't tell me that every planet in Kazon/Vidiian space is short of water!
If everyone used water the same way Neelix did in the first episode, then yeah I can see it. It was seen that the Kazon were less advanced than the Federation technology-wise like recycling, they might not have the filtration systems in place to mass refine water from snowball planets and dwarfs. And the Vidiians were more interested in Bee Gee'ing it in the short term (you're welcome for that ear worm) than long-term planning, which probably bit them in the butt.
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:51 PM
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And some episodes will be heavily modified. Right now I picture "Threshold" without the Warp 10 or lizards, but instead merely being much closer to Warp 10. It's enough of a problem that navigation is impossible at that speed. Do we take the chance of the jump taking us farther away, even another galaxy or intergalactic space?
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Old 02-09-2020, 01:13 PM
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Last night I had a breakthrough regarding how to fix the Maquis. I can't believe it took me this long to figure this out. To summarize my main complaints about the premise:


1. The DMZ settlers had a simple choice: return to the Federation or stay unarmed and not bother the Cardassians.
2. And yet the Maquis claim that the DMZ settlers were abandoned by the Federation in the name of peace.


Okay, let's fix it. Here's a possible timeline:


1. Starfleet informs the DMZ colony leaders of the new deal and the choice that they have to make.
2. Some DMZ leaders do this, but most choose to stay. Some want to maintain their power, some were already discontented with the Federation, some are Bajorans who feel that the Cardassians should've given up more.
3. The leaders who choose to stay don't tell the actual colonists that they had the chance to return to the Federation.

4. The Federation pulls out of the DMZ, believing that everyone who wanted to leave has left. The ones left behind now believe they have been abandoned.
5. The remaining colonists stay armed because they haven't been told the full conditions of the deal. They attack the Cardassians because they haven't been told not to, or because their leaders tell them to.
6. So now we have chaos. The Federation tries telling them again that they should leave, but now it's too late as far as the colonists are concerned. It's not really because of Federation hospitality, now it looks like the Federation is avoiding a political disaster, just like they did when they "abandoned" the colonies in the first place. The Federation (through no fault of their own) has lost trust and needs to rebuild it.

7. Now we have a self-perpetuating circle. The Cardassians attack the Maquis because the deal is broke, the Maquis attack the Cardassians to defend "their" land, the Maquis attack the Federation because they hate them (based on misinformation), etc.
8. And by now the leaders who started this whole thing are now either dead, insane, or have stolen what they could and abandoned the barrel fire that they started.



Opinions?
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Old 02-12-2020, 07:50 PM
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Plausible. However, from what I remember, the Maquis were formed because the Cardassians were breaking the DMZ by shipping weapons to their colonies, and Starfleet was sticking to the treaty too much to balance the power by arming their own citizens in response. The Federation colonists got peeved as did several Starfleet officers, hence the Maquis were formed.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:46 PM
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Could someone explain why the Klingon and Romulan Neutral Zones mostly worked, when the DMZ never did? Like, ever? Was the Cardassian War really so bad that we wanted to end it in any way we could ASAP?


I will agree, however, that Picard was a little too optimistic in "Ensign Ro", etc. He wanted the quick and easy solution to the immediate problem, not a long-lasting one.
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
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Could someone explain why the Klingon and Romulan Neutral Zones mostly worked, when the DMZ never did? Like, ever? Was the Cardassian War really so bad that we wanted to end it in any way we could ASAP?
The Neutral Zones of the empires did not have as many settled worlds as this border. From the backstory I refreshed myself on at Memory Alpha about the DMZ and the Cardassian War, there wasn't much to go on as to why the conflict started. As the latter document guesses, it could be due to expansionist policies of the Cardassians due to resource shortages, like the ones that led to the occupation of Bajor.

Or it could be that Cardassians are the douches of the galaxy.
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:19 PM
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Before I start "Caretaker" proper, let's deal with the opening infodump:


Unhappy with a new treaty, Federation Colonists along the Cardassian border have banded together.
Calling themselves 'The Maquis', they continue to fight the Cardassians.
Some consider them heroes, but to the governments of the Federation and Cardassia, they are outlaws.


Ugh. Let's try "The peace treaty between the Federation and the Cardassian Union gave the colonists within the Demilitarized Zone a choice to either return to the Federation or remain without their citizenship. Because of misinformation and corrupt leadership, most of the colonists believe themselves abandoned by the Federation. Calling themselves the Maquis, they have chosen to stay and fight to evict the Cardassians from their homes. This has created renewed tensions between the two powers, with the Maquis trapped in between and being considered outlaws."






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Old 02-17-2020, 11:58 PM
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I've been considering how to make this thread different from the inevitable Voyager retrospective in 2025. Therefore, I've decided on a few ground rules:


* No Treknobabble nits except where necessary to fix the main plot of the episode.

* No references to other series except where specifically mentioned in the Voyager episode. i.e. in "Death Wish" I can bring up Q's previous relationship with humanity, in "Prototype" I can talk about Data, in "False Profits" I can talk about "The Price", etc.
* No fixing individual lines. I'll be tweaking motivations here, not the actual lines. I may be coming back to this thread during the Voyager retrospective to build on my earlier comments.
* No gushing over particular lines or moments. That kind of thing can wait for the retrospective.



"Caretaker"


* Janeway should've done the necessary research on Tom to not bring up his father in the first conversation. She could've done this at a later point, at the same time that we cover Tom's relationship with his father. Counterpoint their relationships, goals, outlooks on life, etc.

* If the idea was to introduce the original Voyager crew to make it more poignant when they die, more work was needed to establish them. And making fun of Paris all the time wasn't the way to do it. Only one person had to clash with him besides Harry, most likely the original first officer.
* Now's not the time to bring up the bio-neural gel packs. Save it for a later episode when they're actually important. We need the screentime to establish the series premise! Treknology changes (except the EMH of course) can wait until later, along with explaining the moving nacelles if it is supposed to prevent "Force of Nature"-style damage.
* I'm okay with Janeway having a background as a science officer a la Mosaic, but poking around engineering is too much. In fact, this general idea of "all of the senior members of each department got killed, that's why we need the Maquis" is too much. Furthermore, we already have too much to cover in this pilot, all we need is a random voice over the comm saying that they're doing their best!
* The idea that every single member of the medical staff was in Sickbay simultaneously is absurd. I get why we need to kill the CO, but that doesn't mean there aren't nurses. They're out of their depth, being junior officers, so we still need the EMH, but give him some help!
* The whole farm illusion thing is a waste of time that could've been better spent elsewhere. I would almost prefer a copy of Emissary where each person sees a different thing, and Caretaker is in a different role in each. It would be good for character development and you'd only need a short time for each.

* I'll deal with the desert planet/water is more valuable than gold thing in the retrospective. Suffice to say, it's stupid. They could pay Neelix in another way. Just offering to fix his ship a la "Outrageous Okona" would be enough.

* The Maquis ship (the Val Jean) remaining unnamed is stupid. In fact, I hate it in general when enemy ships are unnamed. When we face the Romulans, do you think they refer to us as "the Starfleet ship"? I doubt it.
* The basic plot is okay, I just wish it could've been fleshed out a bit.
* I've said it before, I'll say it again: destroying the Array was necessary. Janeway feels no guilt, nobody blames her.
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Old 02-18-2020, 12:46 AM
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Things will get more complicated as the episodes progress. There isn't that much wrong with Caretaker besides the impossible task that it set itself to establish...


1. Three crews (old Starfleet, New Starfleet, Maquis)
2. Old setting (remember, you had to be familar with the end of TNG and the start of DS9 to really get a grasp on this stuff, VOY didn't exposit enough. Weird, considering that the Federation/Maquis stuff was supposed to be a CENTRAL PLOT, one that TNG and DS9 gave up multiple episodes over YEARS to do and the VOY creative staff just threw away!)

3. New setting
4. New friends and enemies
5. A mystery


Compare with the other pilots. DS9 only had to deal with one crew, one setting, one enemy, and one mystery. TNG also one crew, one setting, one enemy, and one mystery. I haven't watched Broken Bow since the premiere, but to my recollection they also bit off more than they could chew.
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Old 02-20-2020, 03:04 AM
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"Parallax"


My first draft was getting very Retrospective-like, so I'm going to try a new strategy:


Plotlines:
1. Chakotay is trying to soften Torres enough to convince Janeway to make her Chief Engineer, creating friction with the captain at the same time.
2. Kes and Neelix join the senior staff.
3. Chakotay is defending the Maquis officers, attempting to promote their careers, but Janeway doesn't want to place them over Starfleet officers.
4. Voyager has problems (including a shrinking Doc) because of the S.A.O.T.W., eventually they're trapped and can't escape.
5. The Maquis already want to mutiny at the earliest chance.


1. Fine, my only problem is that Carey could've used more development before Torres attacked him. He's supposed to be the best officer for the job except for Torres' larger knowledge. We'll get back to this after a sidestep with...
3. While I can see Janeway's point about promoting Maquis officers over Starfleet ones, Chakotay is right. If Janeway states outright "those of you who previously held a Starfleet rank can have them back, but everyone else are crewmen only", she'd have a mutiny on her hands Chakotay or no Chakotay. Consider how Wesley achieved Acting Ensign status by proving his value even if he hadn't gone to Starfleet Academy yet. So the non-Starfleet Maquis would be crewmen and Tuvok's "night school" to earn their commissions should have been moved to this point. Back to...
1. The Torres/Carey thing should've been a longer-running subplot, lasting a few episodes before Torres gets the job.

4. I don't have a problem with the anomaly itself, but shrinking Doc was a bad idea for right now. He should be defending his rights and expanding his sentience right now.

5. TOO SOON. The Maquis and their cause need to be established over a few episodes (and introducing more recurring Maquis than Seska, probably Ayala), both their cause and their personalities, before doing this. As it is it looks like every single minor Maquis doesn't even want to try to fit in, which means that they don't deserve Chakotay's efforts to give them provisional Starfleet ranks.
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Old 02-28-2020, 03:48 AM
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"Time and Again"


Plotlines:


1. The Weird Planet of the Week destroyed themselves and Janeway and Paris accidentally go back in time and could be killed the same way. There are Prime Directive implications.

2. Kes takes the new job of nurse, plus the new job of resident psychic plot device.


Fix them:


1. Actually, it's not just the Prime Directive that needs to be discussed, but the Temporal Prime Directive. Sadly, Janeway has a point. This plot is okay, but should've been pushed a few episodes down the line.

2. Memory Alpha doesn't give this episode a stardate, but Memory Beta says 48498.5, so they've been in the Delta Quadrant over two months. The issue of replacement medical staff should have been a second-episode plot. In fact Episode Two should've been everyone getting settled in this new paradigm and kept the external plot to a minimum. Furthermore giving Spock power after power was okay for TOS since they were creating a universe, but by this point we need there to be limitations to Kes's powers. Her body weakens when she uses her power, her innocent mind is disturbed, etc.



Now lets talk about the Kes/Neelix dynamic here. Neelix is still thinking in scavenger terms: take what you can get, avoid dangerous situations, etc. Kes has already embraced the Federation ideal. Going forward we need more interaction along these lines instead of just Neelix being jealous.
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  #17  
Old 03-17-2020, 02:43 AM
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"Phage"


Plotlines:


1. Voyager is looking for dilithium and encounter the Vidiians.

2. The Vidiians have stolen Neelix's lungs and Voyager has to get them back.
3. Paris is being trained as medical assistant, but Kes looks like a better fit.


1. The problem with the Vidiians is the notion that their transplant technology is lightyears ahead of their ability to cure diseases. And even Doc has a problem curing it. Can't they move memories into clones? Furthermore, later episodes establish that not ALL Vidians have the Phage. Don't their unborn children have immunity that could be exploited a la "Genesis"?



I just had a great idea: the Phage isn't natural. The Borg made it. Don't mention the Borg at this point, of course, but have vague mentions of ancient invaders here and there. What if the Vidiians can't be assimilated, but they could still be used by the Borg to test genetic technology? The Vidiians don't know about any of this and neither does the Voyager crew, but there would be a hint here and there that could be built on later.


2. The whole idea of Kes donating a lung is stupid, if only because her lung would be half the size of Neelix's and wouldn't be powerful enough. Just have the Vidiians and the Doctor collaborate and find a way to modify the Vidiian tech to allow for cloning of organs to be used by the original (involuntary) donor. Of course, this would introduce a new power struggle as one group of Vidiians tries to help their victims, another tries to exploit them by "selling a cure", another turns it into a plague that would create lots of new "donors", etc.


3. I never liked Paris as medical assistant. He had enough to do already. Upon reflection Harry should've taken the job. He's the kind of guy that would assume new duties to impress Janeway. Furthermore Paris already had enough to do dealing with the Starfleer AND Maquis crewmembers that hate him. All Harry had to deal with was missing home. But what if his mother was a doctor or something?


Of course, like I said before the nurses should've survived the trip to the Delta Quadrant in the first place.
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  #18  
Old Yesterday, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
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I just had a great idea: the Phage isn't natural. The Borg made it. Don't mention the Borg at this point, of course, but have vague mentions of ancient invaders here and there. What if the Vidiians can't be assimilated, but they could still be used by the Borg to test genetic technology? The Vidiians don't know about any of this and neither does the Voyager crew, but there would be a hint here and there that could be built on later.
The Borg using a species as genetic testers seems antithetical to the Borg ideology. They wouldn't have problems using drones in experimenting with technology.

A more likely culprit would be the Vaadwaur 900 years ago using a bioweapon against the Vidiians.

But Voyager writers in S1 weren't really about setting up things for later.
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Old Yesterday, 08:16 PM
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Nate the Great Nate the Great is offline
Knate airrant
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But you can't test genetic technology with drones; their entire biology has been altered to be the perfect cybernetic life form. Inject a drone with the Phage and the drone would quickly become so corrupted it would have to be destroyed. No useful medical research.
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