Ambidextrous Link?

[ijdgaf]

About Zelda:

25 hours in, 4 dungeons behind me.

Swordplay with the Wiimote keeps getting better and better.

I'm not geeking out over the plot completely yet. But I'm getting the impression there are some definite bombshells coming up.

Still not sure how the hell they'll manage to squeeze this game chronologically between OoT/MM and Wind Waker.

Go Adama!

(wait, that's not about Zelda...)

[Nate the Great]

In 25 hours I golly well expect the plot to get addictive. I'll give them a few hours of non addictive stuff, because we all have to learn the interface, dungeon setup, etc, but after four dungeons, I hope you're in the swing of things. Unless you're STILL just starting and there's really fifty dungeons.

[ijdgaf]

Don't worry. You'll get a few hours of nonaddictive stuff. I was very unimpressed by the plot at first. I'm enjoying it more now, but it's not the geekgasm I've been promised.... yet.

[Nate the Great]

There's a new one for the glossary: geekgasm. Of course my mind immediately went to the Riddler in Batman Forever. Joygasm!

So what's wrong with the plot? Too simple? Too complicated? Too many subplots that aren't connecting, ever?

[ijdgaf]

Too boring for the first couple of hours.

Right now, It's just sort of weird because the dots haven't been fully connected on how it fits in with the other games. The new elements are cool and all, but I don't really see the connection. Yet. But I have a hard time believing it's not coming. So I'm still optimistic it'll turn out great (as I've heard nothing but great things about the plot).

It's mostly because my impressions just aren't complete yet.

[Nate the Great]

So you kinda want the standard infodump on "okay, this is what happened before, here are some subtle references to the Links of the other games," etc.

This leads into one of my canonical itches that I can't scratch away. Some canon lists of the games split into a "Adult OOT Link" branch and a "Child OOT Link" branch. You know, one history had the world know that Link stopped Ganon, there was a period of reconstruction, maybe he married Zelda, who knows. The other history had him reappear in the Temple of Time immediately after he left. I think in the final timeline Ganon and his minions suddenly vanished in the middle of their attack on Hyrule Castle (when Link was still inside Jabu Jabu). At least that was my assumption. Then again, the big question with the end of OOT was "did Zelda know who Link was?" That was never answered, was it?

For that matter, how did a child of ten (according to the game manuals) get his hands on Epona to take her to Termina in MM? From the way Talon was talking, even as a young horse Epona was clearly remarkable and would be valuable property, either as breeding stock or as a present to Zelda's father or something. Even with 500 rupees, could Link just out and out BUY Epona?

Then again, how much is a rupee? Is there anything in the game that Link can buy that would immediately have a real-world dollar amount attached to it? Let's try guessing a bit. A minigame is usually ten rupees, right? Let's say that that indicates that 1 rupee=50 cents to a dollar, comparing a minigame to most arcade games (real ones like Skeeball, not Pac-man ). I'd say that it's closer to a dollar, what with the 20 rupee cost for a shield. Twenty bucks for a large (presumably hardened) piece of bark, carved and painted, with a leather strap, seems about right. Eighty bucks for a piece of sheet metal (a Hylian Shield), with wooden lathes on the inside and a metal handle, also seems reasonable.

Now, granted this doesn't seem to hold water in some areas. Maybe five hundred bucks for a fish in Goron City makes sense, but in Zora's Domain it should be cheaper. Simularly, magic is presented as the domain of a select few, given that not everyone has the munitions required to access the Hyrule Great Fairies Fountain, clearly few people climb Death Mountain, as visitors seem to be few and far between in Goron City, etc. One would presume that magic would be cleaper in the outlands than in Hyrule Castle Town.

[ijdgaf]

You clearly need to play Wind Waker. It clears up (for me) a lot of the confusion about where the timeline went from Ocarina.

Essentially, in the intro to WW, it talks about a hero (we're lead to assume this is the Hero of Time from Ocarina) who saves Hyrule from an evil force. But then, the hero leaves Hyrule and the evil returns. The people expect their hero to arrive, but he never does. And the fate of Hyrule is a mystery.

I'm not going to elaborate further since you haven't played it. But that's enough to make my point.

The end of Ocarina has Link restored to his status as a child. And then he leaves for Termina in Majora's Mask.

And this makes perfect sense with the backstory of Wind Waker. Here, we can assume Link never returns to Hyrule, and when the evil returns Hyrule is SOL.

Now everything I've read states that Twilight Princess takes place between Majora's Mask and Wind Waker. Which makes very little sense to me. How did they manage to squeeze a third hero between them? Which hero does the backstory of Wind Waker speak of? Is the Link of Twilight Princess going to be forgotten somehow? Or was the original hero forgotten? Or what?

As of 31 hours in, there aren't any answers. But there have been *plenty* of nods to Ocarina of Time which lead me to assume the answers are coming. I'm just stumped at the moment is all. I can't accurately assess the strength of the plot because I've been lead to believe the big reveals are yet to come.

Of course, I've spent the past 5 hours searching for heart pieces, fishing, raising money for [censored], and collecting various golden [censored]. None of which have anything at all to do with the main plot.

It's Zelda, through and through. And the side quests are certainly compelling. And fishing freaking ROCKS with the wiimote.

It also doesn't help that I haven't the vaguest idea where the next temple is. Hmmm....

[Nate the Great]

From what I've seen, aren't LARGE sectors of Windwaker devoted to:

1. Playing a song to summon winds and/or the boat.
2. Sailing the stinkin' boat.
3. Fighting up a hundred-story tower.

"How do they manage" Um, except for the game sets that are obviously one right after the other (OOT/MM, LOZ/AL, LTTP/FS, etc.), aren't the sets themselves hundreds of years apart?

For that matter, I'm led to believe that the only "Child Link returned to Hyrule" post-OOT games are MM and OOA/OOS. Everything else is "Adult Link survives OOT," right?

Don't worry about spoilers. Remember that I bought the MM manual before I even owned or played the game. Still don't own it, I borrowed it from a friend, he was even nice enough to give me my own Expansion Pak. I tiptoed through MM and still found it challenging.

I suppose that's one handy reason to have Navi. After about the twentieth time through, I started listening to her again and she was always there to prod me in the right direction in case it was my first time and didn't know already. Seriously, Kaepora Gaebora sends you to Zelda, who sends you to Impa, who sends you to Kakariko and up Death Mountain, who sends you on a "green song" quest back to the Lost Woods to meet Saria. Darunia sends you up Death Mountain, Navi tells you to call Saria, who says that King Zora has the Sapphire. The only thing you can do is dive, you find the hole, find the bottle, everyone's prattling about Jabu-Jabu, etc. etc. You grow up, Sheik sends you to Kakariko, everyone's prattling how Dampe is haunting everyone, beat Dampe, beat the Forest Temple, Navi sees dark clouds over Death Mountain, feels an icy wind from Zora's Domain (sensitive fairy ), reminds you about Impa and Kakariko, practically screams at you to visit the desert, yada yada.

Kinda sad, though, how you still don't know the central thrust yet. In OOT it was:

1. Save the Deku Tree.
2. Visit Zelda.
3. Get the stones.
4. Open the Door of Time.
5. Get the medallions.
6. Beat Ganon.

You always knew what the end goal was, beyond just "beat Ganondorf."

I gave up on the LOZ GBA because of that problem: where's the temple? You can reach all eight in any order, right? But you can't BEAT all eight in any order. You can't even FIND all eight in the right order. That stinks.

[ijdgaf]

Sorry I didn't make this clear before, but I think it's unnecessary to say that some games followed Link as a child, others as an adult after OoT.

The intro to Wind Waker talks about a hero who left Hyrule after saving it, but didn't return when it needed help again. Sounds easy enough to reconcile with Majora's Mask to me, where a hero left Hyrule and didn't return. And Wind Waker seems to set things up nicely for Link to the Past, the next game in the series (I think Phantom Hourglass will make this connection stronger).

So I don't think any games followed Link as an adult after OoT. Unless Twilight Princess does somehow.

Anyway, everyone has there own opinion on how the games flow together timewise anyway. Nintendo's only now really figuring it out with the titles since Ocarina.

For the hell of it, my (perfect) take:

First Link
Minish Cap

Second Link
Four Swords
Four Sword Adventures

Third Link
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask

Fourth Link
Twilight Princess

Fifth Link
Wind Waker
Phantom Hourglass

Sixth Link
Link to the Past

Seventh or Eigth Link:
Oracle of Ages
Oracle of Seasons
Link's Awakening

Seventh or Eigth Link:
Legend of Zelda
Adventure of Link

[Nate the Great]

http://egamia.com/wiki/Zelda_Timeline

I don't take this site as the definative Zelda timeline, but they seem to be more versed in this stuff than I am. They say that there's a timeline split, so I assume that there is. They also use a lot of subtle h2g2 jokes, so I respect them for that, too.

Summary of the Summary: People are a problem.

Ain't that the truth?

[ijdgaf]

Pure speculation, and it ignores so many details as to make it virtually worthless, such as:

1) When LttP came out, it was pretty much universally referred to as a prequel to LoZ and AoL. We see the story of the sages for the first time (in terms of game release). Plus, there are lead-in hints in Wind Waker for this story to happen next.

2) Minish Cap has frequently been referred to as the very first game in the timeline. Which would pretty much make all the four swords games before everything else. Also, they deal with a different villain. It's easy to infer that they predate Ganon(dorf)'s existance.

3) The Link of the Oracle games has never met Zelda. He cannot be the Hero of Time.

4) The joint ending of the Oracle games makes it clear that that this Link is the same as the Link of Link's Awakening. Pamphlets may have indicated otherwise in the past, but I think the story presented in games tends to supercede any other so-called "canon".

5) Four Swords Link is pretty obviously Four Sword Adventures Link.

6) There's really no need for a timeline split unless you really feel the need. It works just as well without. Unless Twilight Princess indicates such a split, it's mostly unnecessary and I would prefer a simpler explanation.

Not that any of it is really that important. The games, for the most part, deal with unrelated heroes who stand perfectly well on their own. Miyamoto has said they have an ultimate version of the timeline locked away somewhere, but it really doesn't matter either way. I guess it's cool that the games are starting to connect the dots, and it's fun to think about. But it's really not worth devoting too much attention to.

[Nate the Great]

Ah, the old "we know what we're doing, but it's a secret even to us" gag. Sounds like the Coca-cola formula.

Uh, I thought there was a decree from on high that OOT is first. Period.

I don't like the idea of a split either, but the guy said that there was, so I assume that there is.

I suppose I'm in favor of an "adult ending OOT" timeline, if only because it would mean that the Hero of Time is actually remembered by everyone. I mean, everyone who's anyone in Hyrule knew who Link was by the end. He'd established his legendary status as a Dodongo Buster with the Gorons, I'm sure his "breaking off" of his "engagement" with Ruto will be gossipped about for generations among the Zoras. The Kokiri actually left the forest at the end of OOT, so they will speak of him, too.

Oh, a sidenote on the "Kokiri at the party, even though they're supposed to stay in the Forest" thing. I don't think for a second that they'd really die if they tried to leave, that was just a white lie given by the Great Deku Tree for their protection. That was to keep the Kokiri in blissful ignorance. Kinda odd, though, how Malon knew about the "fairy boys from the forest." I didn't see anything keeping anyone out, either. Did the Hylians just take a stand of voluntary slothfulness about the Kokiri? Anyway, with Ganon gone and the other evil guys vanquished, there wasn't any reason for the Deku Tree Sprout to keep them in, so they went out to the party.

[ijdgaf]

They clearly break that rule in Wind Waker

[Nate the Great]

Oh, come on! After twenty years, don't they realize that we care about this stuff? What possible reason could they have for not giving us the official timeline?

[ijdgaf]

I was referring to the Kokiri.

And sorry, but HOLY #%@*& I am frustrated with this game right now.

There are two types of fishing in this game. Easy and EXCEDINGLY FRUSTRATING. And unfortunately:

1) they don't give you much/any real direction on how it works, and
2) the latter type is the only type you can do anywhere, and
3) several points in the game you MUST fish to advance the storyline.

I am so burned out. Maybe even enough to stop procrastinating and start my grad school applications.

[Nate the Great]

Oh, the Kokiri. Well, I assume that there's no Great Deku Tree in TP to tell them not to.

Having to fish? Sounds like quite the burden.

I've heard that "the worst day fishing is still better than the best day working." Or so I've heard. Personally, I never really warmed up to it.

[ijdgaf]

Okay. After registering on the Penny Arcade forums just to ask a stupid question about fishing, I've figured it out. It's not hard, it's just unintuitive and lacking in instruction.

Fifth dungeon is awesome as hell. Surprise surprise.

[Nate the Great]

They're talking about TP at Penny Arcade? Weird.

[Hejira]

Originally Posted by ijdgaf

3) several points in the game you MUST fish to advance the storyline.

If the music changed to tell you a fish was actually on the line, it wouldn't be that much of a problem.

Two hours of my game time was spent figuring out that I had, indeed, had fish biting all the time. I have so far played for three hours.

Please tell me two-thirds of the entire game aren't dedicated to fishing. "Legend of Zelda: Twilight Sea Bass" isn't very appealing.

[ijdgaf]

That first fishing excursion I pretty much succeeded at randomly. Don't worry. You'll beat several more dungeons before you have to fish again.

The secret:

1) cast line
2) wiggle controller a little
3) wait for bobber to start sinking
4) pull up real hard
5) don't touch any buttons. Link'll pull it up automatically.

Here, I was wiggling the controller constantly or on and off, not realizing that you actually had to yank the controller when the bobber sank to hook a fish.

And the actual reel fishing later on is pretty fun, surprisingly. Don't get turned off to the concept entirely.