The Five-Minute Forums  

Go Back   The Five-Minute Forums > FiveMinute.net > Science Fiction

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-11-2006, 12:03 AM
Nate the Great's Avatar
Nate the Great Nate the Great is online now
Knate airrant
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 3,741
Default The Ring-Ship Enterprise

http://trekplace.com/article13.html

The above link describes the Enterprise from the STTMP display that was between the Shuttle and the NCC-1701. I'm not claiming to be canon, but it's an interesting story. According to their theory, the ring-ship Enterprise XCV 330 was an Earth Starfleet starship predating the NX-01 by some thirty years, limited to Warp Two only. All well and good, but if they are trying to reconcile a picture and one line of dialogue from the worst Star Trek movie ever, then they're in a losing battle to begin with. If they try to establish the XCV 330 as canon, then how can they EVER justify the NX-01 not being in the display. Think about it. The shuttle was only in (I think) three sub-orbital flights before being shipped off to the Smithsonian. The aircraft carrier was (I think) hardly unique or special among others of its type. If they're included and the XCV 300 was included, WHY WASN'T the NX-01? There are only a few ways I can think of to reconcile Enterprise with this ring-ship:

1. Just set the show on the XCV 300! Easy as pie.
2. Set the prequel show on the Daedalus! I was rooting for this, the Daedalus looks cooler and more consistent than the NX-01. Come on, Star Trek: Daedalus, it has a cool ring to it, doesn't it?
3. Just state outright that the XCV 300 isn't canon. It was ten seconds in an awful movie, and it wouldn't be the first time an aspect of broadcast Trek was rendered noncanon. I recall an interview that says that the creators would just as soon forget that Threshold ever happened, and remember that Roddenberry hated Star Trek V and VI.
4. Set Enterprise in a parallel universe, the way it certainly appears to be. Appearances of the Ferengi and the Borg certainly seem to put it there.
__________________
mudshark: Nate's just being...Nate.
Zeke: It comes nateurally to him.

mudshark: I don't expect Nate to make sense, really -- it's just a bad idea.

Sa'ar Chasm on the 5M.net forum: Sit back, relax, and revel in the insanity.

Adam Savage: I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Crow T. Robot: Oh, stop pretending there's a plot. Don't cheapen yourself further.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-11-2006, 08:45 AM
PointyHairedJedi's Avatar
PointyHairedJedi PointyHairedJedi is offline
He'd enjoy a third pie
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Scotlands
Posts: 4,354
Send a message via ICQ to PointyHairedJedi Send a message via AIM to PointyHairedJedi Send a message via Yahoo to PointyHairedJedi
Default

Every time you call TMP an "awful" movie my fingernails dig just that bit deeper into the desk's surface. There's quite an impressive gouge by now.

The sensible of me says that the whole thing really is moot whichever way you turn it, like Khan recognising Chekov. You either spend silly amounts of time coming up with contorted explanations as how this could be so, or you get on with it and accept that there's something there that just cannot be reconciled. On the other hand, the not-sensible part of me (about 90% by volume) says that had Enterprise gone on to a fifth season, it would have been shown in the finale that as a matter of fact Archer was the captain of the ringship Enterprise and had been in a coma for the past five seasons. For some strange reason those in charge decided to change that idea into that very strange thing we had at the end of season four instead.
__________________
Mason: Luckily we at the Agency use use a high-tech piece of software that will let us spot him instantly via high-res satellite images.
Sergeant: You can? That's amazing!
Mason: Yes. We call it 'Google Earth'.
- Five Minute 24 S1 (it lives, honest!)

"Everybody loves pie!"
- Spongebob Squarepants
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-11-2006, 11:29 AM
Nate the Great's Avatar
Nate the Great Nate the Great is online now
Knate airrant
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 3,741
Default

How would you describe it?

There is NOTHING in the show to say that Chekov was NOT on the ship during the first season. We just didn't see him. It's entirely reasonable and only a one-step rationalization. To reconcile the NX-01 into canon requires way more than one-step rationalization.
__________________
mudshark: Nate's just being...Nate.
Zeke: It comes nateurally to him.

mudshark: I don't expect Nate to make sense, really -- it's just a bad idea.

Sa'ar Chasm on the 5M.net forum: Sit back, relax, and revel in the insanity.

Adam Savage: I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Crow T. Robot: Oh, stop pretending there's a plot. Don't cheapen yourself further.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-11-2006, 02:33 PM
Scooter's Avatar
Scooter Scooter is offline
Doctoral candidate
Staff
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Earth, again
Posts: 831
Send a message via AIM to Scooter
Default

I think the lack of placement of the NX-01 in the rec room in TMP can be easily explained by the fact that the movie was made several years before the NX-01 was developed for Enterprise.

No really, that's the explanation.

(We Whovians have learned that continuity must be approached flexibly. Of course, that doesn't stop the high-flying but fascinating conjectures, like Season 6(b), an entire series of unknown adventures that are requiured to explain how the Second Doctor turns up in later stories able to fly the TARDIS and with knowledge of events that occurred minutes before his apparent death.)

IMO, the only other possible explanation that can be inserted within canonicity is that some "Yesterday's Enterprise" style event changed history such that for a period of time in the 23rd century the NX-01 never existed. Time was healed, however, at some later point such that Riker and Troi were able to participate in the worst Trek series finale ever postulated by observing NX-01 related events. Now, go out there and write the fanfic novel that tells the story of the Time Wound that Killed the NX-01! (Knowing Archer and his bumbling around with time, he probably did it himself.)

OR... apply Occam's Razor and assume the hapless ensign who set up the displays in the rec room was asleep during the Starfleet History 101 class where they taked about Archer. (Decker doesn't explain this to V'ger/Ilia because, why complicate things?)

OR... maybe he was a descendant of the Xindi and this was his own little joke or a pointless act of petty revenge. I'll show that Archer, who's been dead for a century! I'll avoid putting up a placque to commemorate his ship!

OR... OR... OR... (it never ends, alas)
__________________
An updated list of all my online writing can be found here. Check it out.

Last edited by Scooter; 09-11-2006 at 02:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-11-2006, 04:17 PM
Derek's Avatar
Derek Derek is offline
Dean of misderektion
Senior Staff
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Sector 001
Posts: 1,106
Default

...OR "All these ships were named Enterprise" is not the same things as "These were all the ships named Enterprise."
__________________
"Please, Aslan," said Lucy, "what do you call soon?"
"I call all times soon," said Aslan; and instantly he vanished away and Lucy was alone with the Magician.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-11-2006, 06:36 PM
Nate the Great's Avatar
Nate the Great Nate the Great is online now
Knate airrant
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 3,741
Default

I did read that on the ring-ship page, but I return to my original contention. Will anyone admit to the arguement that there were only five slots for Enterprises, of which there are dozens or even hundreds in history (mostly privately owned, check Wikipedia), and that the XCV 330 made the cut and the NX-01 didn't? We're not arguing that there were only ever five ships, we're arguing that the right for the NX-01 to be up there if it existed in the same timeline as ST:TMP is greater that that of the XCV 330 if the statements made by the creators is to be believed as gospel.
__________________
mudshark: Nate's just being...Nate.
Zeke: It comes nateurally to him.

mudshark: I don't expect Nate to make sense, really -- it's just a bad idea.

Sa'ar Chasm on the 5M.net forum: Sit back, relax, and revel in the insanity.

Adam Savage: I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Crow T. Robot: Oh, stop pretending there's a plot. Don't cheapen yourself further.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-11-2006, 10:49 PM
mudshark's Avatar
mudshark mudshark is offline
Is he ever gonna hit Krazy Kat, or what?
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UMRK
Posts: 1,738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Improbability View Post
To reconcile the NX-01 into canon requires way more than one-step rationalization.
It requires no rationalization, whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
I think the lack of placement of the NX-01 in the rec room in TMP can be easily explained by the fact that the movie was made several years before the NX-01 was developed for Enterprise.

No really, that's the explanation.
Bingo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek View Post
...OR "All these ships were named Enterprise" is not the same things as "These were all the ships named Enterprise."
Also bingo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Improbability View Post
2. Set the prequel show on the Daedalus!
[...]
Come on, Star Trek: Daedalus, it has a cool ring to it, doesn't it?
Nope. No, thanks.

Please, no Daedalus. The only way I can see that ship working is as one of a large class of workhorse vessels constructed quickly and cheaply for the Earth-Romulan war, much as the Liberty and Victory ships were during WWII: strictly non-glamo[u]r, non-starring-role, "get the grunt-work done in an unobtrusive way" sort of ships. You'd see them in passing or in the background, but that's about all.

Quote:
...the Daedalus looks cooler and more consistent than the NX-01.
Nope. Not even close.
__________________
Methinks Ted Sturgeon was too kind.

'Yes, but I think some people should be offended.'
-- John Cleese (on whether he thought some might be offended by Monty Python)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-12-2006, 11:02 PM
Scooter's Avatar
Scooter Scooter is offline
Doctoral candidate
Staff
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Earth, again
Posts: 831
Send a message via AIM to Scooter
Default

I sure wouldn't want to serve on the Daedalus. It doesn't look very practical. Everything arranged along a long thin shaft like that? Archer would have a five-hour hike every time he had to go from the bridge to Engineering to yell at Trip. I'll bet all the bathrooms are all the way aft too.
__________________
An updated list of all my online writing can be found here. Check it out.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-13-2006, 03:57 AM
Nate the Great's Avatar
Nate the Great Nate the Great is online now
Knate airrant
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 3,741
Default

Ever heard of a mystical device called a turbolift? They do go horizontally as well, you know. Come on, the E-D was over a kilometer long, as I recall.

So what's wrong with a grunt ship? Don't grunts have interesting lives, too? Isn't that the point of "Lower Decks" and "Good Shepard?"

No rationalization? Are you going to explain away UESPA as well?

You're just going to handwave away:

Spock not being the first human/Vulcan hybrid?
Warp nacelles getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
Deflector dishes getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
Uniforms getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
Communicators getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
And on and on and on...
__________________
mudshark: Nate's just being...Nate.
Zeke: It comes nateurally to him.

mudshark: I don't expect Nate to make sense, really -- it's just a bad idea.

Sa'ar Chasm on the 5M.net forum: Sit back, relax, and revel in the insanity.

Adam Savage: I reject your reality and substitute my own!

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Crow T. Robot: Oh, stop pretending there's a plot. Don't cheapen yourself further.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-13-2006, 10:03 AM
Scooter's Avatar
Scooter Scooter is offline
Doctoral candidate
Staff
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Earth, again
Posts: 831
Send a message via AIM to Scooter
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Improbability View Post
Ever heard of a mystical device called a turbolift?
Hmm, isn't your point that the Daedalus comes from a more primitive time? I was assuming no turbolifts. My guess would be something more along the lines of an airport moving walkway. I'm picturing it easing slowly along with Trip standing to the right while Archer stomps past, and Trip calling merrily after him, "In a hurry, Cap'n?"
__________________
An updated list of all my online writing can be found here. Check it out.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-13-2006, 11:55 AM
Derek's Avatar
Derek Derek is offline
Dean of misderektion
Senior Staff
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Sector 001
Posts: 1,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Improbability View Post
You're just going to handwave away:

Warp nacelles getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
Deflector dishes getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
Uniforms getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
Communicators getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
And on and on and on...
I sure am. The producers were upfront about how the technology would be somewhere in between the technology we saw in TOS and the direction our current technology is taking us.
__________________
"Please, Aslan," said Lucy, "what do you call soon?"
"I call all times soon," said Aslan; and instantly he vanished away and Lucy was alone with the Magician.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-13-2006, 02:30 PM
mudshark's Avatar
mudshark mudshark is offline
Is he ever gonna hit Krazy Kat, or what?
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UMRK
Posts: 1,738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Improbability View Post
No rationalization? Are you going to explain away UESPA as well?
No. Why bother?
Quote:
You're just going to handwave away:

Spock not being the first human/Vulcan hybrid?
Warp nacelles getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
Deflector dishes getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
Uniforms getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
Communicators getting more primitive from the NX-01 to the NCC-1701
And on and on and on...
Sure. Why not?
__________________
Methinks Ted Sturgeon was too kind.

'Yes, but I think some people should be offended.'
-- John Cleese (on whether he thought some might be offended by Monty Python)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-13-2006, 02:38 PM
Zeke's Avatar
Zeke Zeke is offline
The lens that flares in the night
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 3,348
Send a message via ICQ to Zeke Send a message via AIM to Zeke Send a message via Yahoo to Zeke
Default

Rationalizing is what Trekkies do. We've been doing it since the earliest days of TOS. Trying to stop us now is just counterproductive.
__________________
FiveMinute.net: because stuff is long and life is short

[03:17] FiveMinZeke: Galactica clearly needs the advanced technology of scissors, which get around the whole "yanking on your follicles" problem.
[03:17] IJD: cylons can hack any blades working in conjunction
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-13-2006, 02:58 PM
Sa'ar Chasm's Avatar
Sa'ar Chasm Sa'ar Chasm is offline
Our last, best hope for peace
Staff
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Sitting (in Ottawa)
Posts: 3,425
Default

What I think happen is that the poor schmoe who had to decorate the Rec Room hated Enterprise, so he substituted some random picture of a bit of space junk. Decker didn't actually recognise what it was, but he didn't want to look like an idiot in front of the hot bald probe-droid.
__________________
The first run through of any experimental procedure is to identify any potential errors by making them.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-13-2006, 03:31 PM
mudshark's Avatar
mudshark mudshark is offline
Is he ever gonna hit Krazy Kat, or what?
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UMRK
Posts: 1,738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Rationalizing is what Trekkies do. We've been doing it since the earliest days of TOS. Trying to stop us now is just counterproductive.
Of course it is. Of course we have. I have no intention of trying to stop anyone; I just don't want to get into an endless and unproductive argument with someone about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sa'ar Chasm View Post
... but he didn't want to look like an idiot in front of the hot bald probe-droid.
Of course not. Who does?
__________________
Methinks Ted Sturgeon was too kind.

'Yes, but I think some people should be offended.'
-- John Cleese (on whether he thought some might be offended by Monty Python)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-13-2006, 03:40 PM
Zeke's Avatar
Zeke Zeke is offline
The lens that flares in the night
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 3,348
Send a message via ICQ to Zeke Send a message via AIM to Zeke Send a message via Yahoo to Zeke
Default

Relax, shark, I was talking to Nate.
__________________
FiveMinute.net: because stuff is long and life is short

[03:17] FiveMinZeke: Galactica clearly needs the advanced technology of scissors, which get around the whole "yanking on your follicles" problem.
[03:17] IJD: cylons can hack any blades working in conjunction
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-16-2006, 10:11 AM
PointyHairedJedi's Avatar
PointyHairedJedi PointyHairedJedi is offline
He'd enjoy a third pie
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Scotlands
Posts: 4,354
Send a message via ICQ to PointyHairedJedi Send a message via AIM to PointyHairedJedi Send a message via Yahoo to PointyHairedJedi
Default

OR WAS HE?

(We don't do that enough nowadays.)
__________________
Mason: Luckily we at the Agency use use a high-tech piece of software that will let us spot him instantly via high-res satellite images.
Sergeant: You can? That's amazing!
Mason: Yes. We call it 'Google Earth'.
- Five Minute 24 S1 (it lives, honest!)

"Everybody loves pie!"
- Spongebob Squarepants
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-16-2006, 03:14 PM
Gatac's Avatar
Gatac Gatac is offline
Man in the iron mask
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Magdeburg, Germany
Posts: 667
Send a message via ICQ to Gatac Send a message via AIM to Gatac
Default

OR DO WE?

Gatac
__________________
Katy: Can I have the skill 'drive car off bridge and have parachute handy'?
Justin: It's kind of a limited skill.
Greg: Depends on how often you drive off bridges.
- d02 Quotes
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-16-2006, 10:08 PM
PointyHairedJedi's Avatar
PointyHairedJedi PointyHairedJedi is offline
He'd enjoy a third pie
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Scotlands
Posts: 4,354
Send a message via ICQ to PointyHairedJedi Send a message via AIM to PointyHairedJedi Send a message via Yahoo to PointyHairedJedi
Default

Well, in that case...

NINJA!
__________________
Mason: Luckily we at the Agency use use a high-tech piece of software that will let us spot him instantly via high-res satellite images.
Sergeant: You can? That's amazing!
Mason: Yes. We call it 'Google Earth'.
- Five Minute 24 S1 (it lives, honest!)

"Everybody loves pie!"
- Spongebob Squarepants
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-16-2006, 11:48 PM
mudshark's Avatar
mudshark mudshark is offline
Is he ever gonna hit Krazy Kat, or what?
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: UMRK
Posts: 1,738
Default

GAH!


(But relaxed...)
__________________
Methinks Ted Sturgeon was too kind.

'Yes, but I think some people should be offended.'
-- John Cleese (on whether he thought some might be offended by Monty Python)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.