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  #21  
Old 03-18-2003, 05:45 AM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]But they butchered "Dune" SO BADLY in Lynch's version.

A list of the crimes committed against continuity:
[*] The Baron a necrophiliac?! To quote Gimpy of UnderGRADS: "the [iost_uid0]hell?[/iost_uid0]"[*] The Baron was fat, sure, but not covered in nasty pustules.[*] The house colour of the Harkonnens was blue, not black-rubber coated machinery![*] Where was Rabban?![*] There's no such thing as a "power-word."[*] Paul didn't train the Fremen to use lasguns.[*] Paul marries Irulan, but the movie doesn't even do anything with her except have her do the intro. Blak.[*] Jessica freaked out and broke down in tears after the worm showed up? JESSICA?! Hello! She's a Bene Gesserit! And a concubine! And JESSICA! AGH![*] The Bene Gesserit were creepy bald women?! They were generally voluptuous and attractive. The Reverend Mothers were generally old. Where did the baldness thing come from?[*] Never mentioned Paul's son.[*] The casting was terrible, excepting Brad Dourif (Piter Devries) and Sting (as Feyd). Not that Sting had a lot to do but pout, but still.

Some thought William Hurt's Leto was "comatose" but I always figured the Duke to be a sober, sort of sad guy anyway. Also, I've heard complaints about the miniseries' Paul being petulant early on etc. I think the casting was much better the second time around. The original "Dune" has NO sense of ethnicity. Ick. So many WASPs! WASPs everywhere!

I want the ethnic flavour, dammit! I spent weeks on that series. I'm owed something here as a consumer.

Plus, the sets and effects are really good. Instead of CG backgrounds they used painted backdrops and had opera-style lighting. It's really cool.

Nan[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-18-2003, 01:27 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]I've seen a TV mini-series too, Sa'ar. But Brian Jacques had creative control over it, so that's fine by me. What I was thinking of was a full-length motion picture cartoon with characters spontaneously breaking into song (think of most Disney movies), and corny songs at that. :dead: Plus doing what Nan says they did to [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0]. There is not a single movie producer living who knows how to treat a book that is to be turned into a movie. :eyeroll:[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-18-2003, 01:54 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="NAHTMMM"]There is not a single movie producer living who knows how to treat a book that is to be turned into a movie. :eyeroll:[/quoteost_uid0]

Hello? Peter Jackson? [iost_uid0]Lord of the Rings[/iost_uid0]? Ring any bells?

(I also think it needs pointing out, despite the fact that they're sort of out of the genre, that the [iost_uid0]Harry Potter[/iost_uid0] movies are fantastic adaptations of the books. Not to mention all the great movie adaptations I've seen of Jane Austen novels, Shakespearean plays, and other works....)[/colorost_uid0]

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Old 03-18-2003, 03:45 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]I haven't read the books in years, but I think Peter Jackson did all right. Relatively speaking. So where [iost_uid0]was[/iost_uid0] Tom in the movies, anyway? :S

I'm not saying that a movie "based" on a book will always be horrible ([iost_uid0]Willie Wonka[/iost_uid0] was enjoyable, and it didn't even have the same title as the book), I'm saying that feature-length movies (Rikki-tikki-tavi does not count ) always mess around with the plot, characters, and anything else the people in charge can think of. Or close to always. Enough to get me ticked off at them. Something like that.[/colorost_uid0]
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  #25  
Old 03-18-2003, 07:25 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]Hello? Peter Jackson? Lord of the Rings? Ring any bells?
[/quoteost_uid0]

That's been massacred as well. The changes to the first movie I didn't mind so much, since you can't adapt every single line and paragraph to the screen. I don't miss Bombadil at all, and the other changes they made served to speed up to action. It woulda been six hours long if they hadn't made cuts. Even the interminable Arwen/Aragorn love scenes came from the appendix.

The *second* movie, however...oy. It seems like PJ is remaking the book in his image. It's one thing to cut things out, another to put things in. I barely recognised that movie. I didn't like that way Gimli was made out to be comic relief. Is there anyone here who hasn't seen The Two Towers but plans to? I don't want to spoil anything.[/colorost_uid0]
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  #26  
Old 03-18-2003, 07:36 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="NAHTMMM"]So where [iost_uid0]was[/iost_uid0] Tom in the movies, anyway? :S [/quoteost_uid0]
Well that's obvious. They went a different way in the film than the book (interestly enough, on consultation with the map of Middle Earth, the route taken in the film to get to Rivendell doesn't contradict the books. They just went a different way). This meant that they didn't go through the forest, so didn't get lost, and didn't meet Tom Bombadil.

I completely agree with Nan about the science in The Core being horrid.

[quoteost_uid0]The *second* movie, however...oy. It seems like PJ is remaking the book in his image. It's one thing to cut things out, another to put things in. I barely recognised that movie. I didn't like that way Gimli was made out to be comic relief.[/quoteost_uid0]

I'm with you on the Gimli bit. However, while I won't support or attack PJ's changes, as a film, it is still great. Only when comparing it to the book can you find problems with it.[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-18-2003, 07:46 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"]It seems like PJ is remaking the book in his image.[/quoteost_uid0]
Isn't that the point? Anyone who wants to know what Tolkein was trying to achieve should read his books. No movie, no matter how good, is going to say the things Tolkein said in the way he said them. Instead a movie like FotR should show us PJ's vision of the books. Like discussing a television episode on a message board or with friends, sometimes someone else pulled something out of it that you didn't and vice versa.

LotR gets extra-special consideration on my part since really this has been a labor of love on PJ's and everyone else's part, but to a lesser extent, most movies that are based on books get consideration for the story they tell even if it's not quite the story the books tell.

All that said, I too have been bothered by the differences between the LotR books and movies. The first time I've watched either movie I've said to myself, "That's not the way it happened in the book!" Generally this means I have to go back and see the movie a second time so I can appreciate what PJ was trying to do. It's interesting because a lot of the stories and themes that I've pulled out of the books are not the same ones PJ has.[/colorost_uid0]
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  #28  
Old 03-18-2003, 07:59 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]I've only read the first two books once, so it didn't bother me in the slightest that PJ added stuff or left stuff out. I still think they're marvelous adaptations -- and just look at all the work that went into them! I've only watched about half the features on the extended dvd and I'm already blown away by the attention to detail. It's unsurpassed, in my opinion, whether they're completely faithful to the books or not.[/colorost_uid0]
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  #29  
Old 03-18-2003, 08:14 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]only watched about half the features on the extended dvd and I'm already blown away by the attention to detail. [/quoteost_uid0]

Oh, yeah. I'll grant you that the sets and costumes were amazing...and accurate. Bag End looked exactly as it should, and Moria and Helm's Deep were fantastic.

I also don't miss Bombadil at all. I never did like that character. It meant that they couldn't go to the Barrow-downs to get the swords, which meant that Aragorn had to just hand them out, but that wasn't too jarring. Merry and Pippen, however, came off as a bit to buffoonish. Pippin was a twit, yes, but Merry was the capable one. It's nice to see that the charactes evolved somewhat (and even diverged from each other) in the second movie. I've been a fan of the books for a long time, and as you can probably tell I'm something of a nitpicky purist.


SPOILER WARNING SPOILER WARNING
If you don't want things spoiled, try not to read this bit.
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Elves at Helm's Deep? Come off it. Small changes are one thing, but this is going too far. Faramir succumbing to the lure of the Ring and dragging Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath pretty much ruins that character as well. The Nazgul overflight in the swamp wasn't too bad - it served to relieve up what would otherwise been tedious slogging. Moving Shelob to the final movie is acceptable as well - I'd rather see two 3-hour movies than one 4-hour and one 2-hour movie.
*
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Safe to look now.[/colorost_uid0]
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  #30  
Old 03-19-2003, 01:53 AM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]Yikes!! So many things to reply to. Thats what you get for even missing visiting for a single day. Oh well, I suppose I'd better star somewhere and [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] seems to be the best place...

[quoteost_uid0]The Lynch "Dune" adaptation riles me for the same reason. Gotta love that Princess Irulan was introduced for.... NO REASON in that movie. Phil and I mocked it the whole way through. Some good stuff, more bad stuff. This will prolly get me lynched, but it's true.[/quoteost_uid0]

I'd like to start by saying that a faithful representation of [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] is all but impossible, unless an Indain version was ever made. Yes, the film did change things, but it was clearly done as a compromise so that it would stand as a story on it's own, and not stand as something that would be utterly incoprehensible to anyone but people who had read [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0]. Unfortunately, with a book as complicated as [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] is there is simply no way it could be transfered into the visual medium of film and be recognisibly intact compared to the original. In this sense I think that Lynch's [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] did a pretty good job, and I suspect that a better version would be extremely difficult to make - something equal to it is the best I think can be ever done.

[quoteost_uid0]The Baron a necrophiliac?! To quote Gimpy of UnderGRADS: "the hell?"[/quoteost_uid0]

Are you sure you read the books that carefully? The Baron did have a penchant for doing very nasty things to people, and I think it's not unreasonable to extraoplate from this and do what they did in the film. Plus, as I say, it is supposed to be accessable to people who aren't familiar with the book, and it was I think a good way of getting across the essence of the Baron's character.

[quoteost_uid0]The Baron was fat, sure, but not covered in nasty pustules.[/quoteost_uid0]

Again, Lynch making the character as creepily unpleasant as possible. The Baron can't be built up as he did in the book, so again overcoming the shortcomings of the medium.

[quoteost_uid0]The house colour of the Harkonnens was blue, not black-rubber coated machinery![/quoteost_uid0]

As above, but this time it's the reputation of House Harkonnen as a whole rather than the Baron. And I personally thought it was quite a good representation of Giedi Prime.

[quoteost_uid0]Where was Rabban?![/quoteost_uid0]

He was in there, albeit in a somewhat reduced role than in the book. He was certainly in there when he was supposed to be as far as major plot points are concerned.

[quoteost_uid0]There's no such thing as a "power-word."[/quoteost_uid0]

You'll have to refresh my memory as to that particular point - I'm guessing something to do with the Bene Gesserit though.

[quoteost_uid0]Paul didn't train the Fremen to use lasguns.[/quoteost_uid0]

You're right, he didn't. But that I think was due to the largest plot difference - the whole sonic weapon and 'wierding ways' thing. Come to think of it we didn't see too much of lasguns in the movie anyway - all of the trrops we see are using projectile weapons, though in the final battle the Emperor's ship does have lasgun emplacements.

[quoteost_uid0]Paul marries Irulan, but the movie doesn't even do anything with her except have her do the intro. Blak.[/quoteost_uid0]

So? She doesn't really have any major part to play in [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] anyway - it's not until the next two sequels that she really takes on a role of significance.

[quoteost_uid0]Jessica freaked out and broke down in tears after the worm showed up? JESSICA?! Hello! She's a Bene Gesserit! And a concubine! And JESSICA! AGH![/quoteost_uid0]

The Bene Gesserit aren't Vulcans you know. I do agree that it would have been noce not to see her get in such a flap, but considering her 'husband' has been murdered, and House Atredies nearly destroyed, to see her not show some kind of strong emotion would have been even more unrealistic.

[quoteost_uid0]The Bene Gesserit were creepy bald women?! They were generally voluptuous and attractive. The Reverend Mothers were generally old. Where did the baldness thing come from?[/quoteost_uid0]

Lynch's way of marking them as being different I suppose, and plus it gave them semi-religeous overtones which is pretty much how non-BG in the book saw them. And don't forget Jessica was a BG (as you pointed out before) and she was most definitely not bald.

[quoteost_uid0]Never mentioned Paul's son.[/quoteost_uid0]

This one I chalk up to time constraints and the fact that presumably Lynch wanted to shut off any possibility of a sequel being done to [iost_uid0]his[/iost_uid0] film, which is also borne out by the ending.

[quoteost_uid0]The casting was terrible, excepting Brad Dourif (Piter Devries) and Sting (as Feyd). Not that Sting had a lot to do but pout, but still.[/quoteost_uid0]

Well, I'm at complete odds with you over that one - I thought on the whole it was pretty good, and we certainly got a flavour of what the characters were supposed to be like in the book.

[quoteost_uid0]Some thought William Hurt's Leto was "comatose" but I always figured the Duke to be a sober, sort of sad guy anyway. Also, I've heard complaints about the miniseries' Paul being petulant early on etc. I think the casting was much better the second time around. The original "Dune" has NO sense of ethnicity. Ick. So many WASPs! WASPs everywhere!

I want the ethnic flavour, dammit! I spent weeks on that series. I'm owed something here as a consumer.

Plus, the sets and effects are really good. Instead of CG backgrounds they used painted backdrops and had opera-style lighting. It's really cool.[/quoteost_uid0]

I did have a good rant about the miniseries on the forums in the not too distant past, but unfortunately disapeared along with everything else. Suffice to say, I found it to be substantially inferior to the film in just about every respect. The fact that the Sci-Fi channel is in the process of doing a mini-series of [iost_uid0]Children of Dune[/iost_uid0] (and completely skipping [iost_uid0]Dune Messiah[/iost_uid0]) fills me with dread. As I said before, they are bad bad people if they will cancel the truly excellent [iost_uid0]Farscape[/iost_uid0] for lack of money whilst at the same time being perfectly willing to spend moolah on a sequel to something so dire.

[quoteost_uid0]There is not a single movie producer living who knows how to treat a book that is to be turned into a movie[/quoteost_uid0]

That isn't always necessarily the case. The best film adaptation of a SF novel has got to be [iost_uid0]The Andromeda Strain[/iost_uid0] which anyone who who has read the book will know deviates from it very little. Both are favorites of mine in both mediums.

And as for [iost_uid0]LoTR[/iost_uid0] (and I can only speak from having seen the first film) I was expecting many more inconsistensies than I saw. I'm firmly of the opion that if it gets people interested in reading Tolkien's books then it can only be a good thing.

I haven;t yet seen [iost_uid0]The Core[/iost_uid0] but purely based on the trailers it sounds like someone watched the first [iost_uid0]Austin Powers[/iost_uid0] and for some reason had the thought that a serious film about someting similar to 'Project Vulcan' would be a pretty good idea. I someday hope to meet this person face-to-face so that I can do something bad to them as a just reward for making that film.[/colorost_uid0]
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  #31  
Old 03-19-2003, 02:06 AM
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[quoteost_uid0="Nan"][color=#000000ost_uid0]Put it this way: [bost_uid0]GIANT BUGS ARE NOT POSSIBLE![/bost_uid0][/colorost_uid0][/quoteost_uid0]
[color=#000000ost_uid0]Although technically you are correct, I proved that they were possible a few years ago to my biology teacher - but it's a really far fetched argument. I only did it to argue with him though.

And, yes - I do love to hate [iost_uid0]Starship Troopers[/iost_uid0]. I know it's a satire, but it's a sappy satire.

Besides, that brain bug was disgusting. Seriously.[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-19-2003, 02:45 AM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]You know that reminds me of a b&w 50's SF film (that annoyingly I can't remember the name of) involving super intelligent thingies from Earth's far past when giant bugs ruled the planet. They then take over this town by using people as hosts and controlling them via tendrils leading into the brain. I'm fairly sure there was a modern re-make that of course was frelling awful.

But back to [iost_uid0]Starship Troopers[/iost_uid0] - it was obviously not supposed to be taken seriously, as shown by my favorite scene where (during a battle) some of the characters meet up after killing various bugs and some of them are covered in green goo and the reast are covered in orange goo. And I agree with sax - those brain bugs were pretty icky ([OBSCURE REFERENCE] and more than a little bit Ann Rice [/OBSCURE REFERENCE])[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-19-2003, 03:35 AM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]There are a lot of bad sci-fi and horror movies listed at http://www.badmovies.org/movies/ , PHJ. Maybe yours is listed there.

(Edit) Well, Dune is. http://www.badmovies.org/othermovies/dune/index.html[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-19-2003, 08:02 AM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="PointyHairedJedi"]I'd like to start by saying that a faithful representation of [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] is all but impossible, unless an Indain version was ever made. Yes, the film did change things, but it was clearly done as a compromise so that it would stand as a story on it's own, and not stand as something that would be utterly incoprehensible to anyone but people who had read [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0].[/quoteost_uid0]

Lynch changed so many things there was little point in even bothering to call it "Dune" anyway.

[quoteost_uid0]Unfortunately, with a book as complicated as [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] is there is simply no way it could be transfered into the visual medium of film and be recognisibly intact compared to the original. In this sense I think that Lynch's [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] did a pretty good job, and I suspect that a better version would be extremely difficult to make - something equal to it is the best I think can be ever done.[/quoteost_uid0]

Lynch hardly pulled a Peter Jackson. He put in stuff that was unnecessary (the Guild Steersman, for instance), removed stuff integral to the STORY (the Paul/Chani thing), stuck in stuff that had no place in "Dune" at all (that power word thing)...

Put it this way: if it wasn't trying to be "Dune" I'd've liked it.

[quoteost_uid0]Are you sure you read the books that carefully?[/quoteost_uid0]
He liked slave boys, but they were most definitely ALIVE at the time. And there was no mention of "heart plugs."

[quoteost_uid0]Plus, as I say, it is supposed to be accessable to people who aren't familiar with the book, and it was I think a good way of getting across the essence of the Baron's character.[/quoteost_uid0]

I think him flying around cackling did THAT just fine.

Basically, my qualm with the Lynch characterisation is that he's [iost_uid0]too[/iost_uid0] evil. The Baron was sadistic but not "evil."

[quoteost_uid0]You'll have to refresh my memory as to that particular point - I'm guessing something to do with the Bene Gesserit though.[/quoteost_uid0]
When Paul starts training the Fremen, he pulls out a gun (I think) and says "this is my power-word" and blasts a rock or something apart. Never happens in the book, and there's no reference to power-words in Messiah, Children, or God Emperor...

Fremen had maula pistols, anyway.

[quoteost_uid0]So? She doesn't really have any major part to play in [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] anyway - it's not until the next two sequels that she really takes on a role of significance.[/quoteost_uid0]
It's part of the story. Y'know, the parallels between Paul's mother and the Duke being unable to marry, Shakespeare-like tragedy, etc...

[quoteost_uid0]The Bene Gesserit aren't Vulcans you know. I do agree that it would have been noce not to see her get in such a flap, but considering her 'husband' has been murdered, and House Atredies nearly destroyed, to see her not show some kind of strong emotion would have been even more unrealistic.[/quoteost_uid0]
She's a Bene Gesserit. Effectively, they ARE Vulcans. Also, she didn't flip out in the book like that. She gets buried alive in a sandslide and doesn't freak out like that.

[quoteost_uid0]Lynch's way of marking them as being different I suppose, and plus it gave them semi-religeous overtones which is pretty much how non-BG in the book saw them. And don't forget Jessica was a BG (as you pointed out before) and she was most definitely not bald.[/quoteost_uid0]
She couldn't be bald, she was a main character.

Most of the Emperor's concubines are Bene Gesserit. His wife's a Bene Gesserit. That the Reverend Mothers might be unusual looking I could forgive but those changes change the very nature of the Bene Gesserit.

[quoteost_uid0]Well, I'm at complete odds with you over that one - I thought on the whole it was pretty good, and we certainly got a flavour of what the characters were supposed to be like in the book.[/quoteost_uid0]
Except that the actors were all white and homogenous.

[quoteost_uid0]I did have a good rant about the miniseries on the forums in the not too distant past, but unfortunately disapeared along with everything else. Suffice to say, I found it to be substantially inferior to the film in just about every respect. The fact that the Sci-Fi channel is in the process of doing a mini-series of [iost_uid0]Children of Dune[/iost_uid0] (and completely skipping [iost_uid0]Heretics[/iost_uid0]) fills me with dread. As I said before, they are bad bad people if they will cancel the truly excellent [iost_uid0]Farscape[/iost_uid0] for lack of money whilst at the same time being perfectly willing to spend moolah on a sequel to something so dire.[/quoteost_uid0]
The Dune Messiah/Children of Dune project was in the works long before the Farcsape debacle. Plus, the Dune series isn't actually that big budget.

And doesn't Heretics come WAY after? Like, post God Emperor?

It DOES really suck about Farscape, though.

[quoteost_uid0]I someday hope to meet this person face-to-face so that I can do something bad to them as a just reward for making that film.[/quoteost_uid0]

Pointy, we may disagree on Dune, but you're my kind of person.

Nan[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-19-2003, 08:37 AM
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Hejira Hejira is offline
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[color=#000000:post_uid0]I'd really, really hate to say it, but...

...Stargate (as in the movie. I wouldn't have fived all those episodes if I hated them...okay, Urgo was the exception to the rule) was incredibly, incredibly boring. I'll try watching it again sometime, but the extent of its boringness finally hit me when I read about it on the 'net and my reaction was:

"It had a SPACESHIP?"

Maybe now that I've grown to like Star Trek 5, I'll be able to handle it.[/color:post_uid0]
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Old 03-19-2003, 01:36 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]When Paul starts training the Fremen, he pulls out a gun (I think) and says "this is my power-word" and blasts a rock or something apart. Never happens in the book, and there's no reference to power-words in Messiah, Children, or God Emperor...
[/quoteost_uid0]

Well, again that's part of the whole sonic-weapon thing, which was entirely a Lynch creation.

[quoteost_uid0]And doesn't Heretics come WAY after? Like, post God Emperor?[/quoteost_uid0]

Do'h! [iost_uid0]Dune Messiah[/iost_uid0] is what I meant. I always get the two titles mixed up for some reason.[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-19-2003, 05:34 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]Interesting how we all find different points... but "we're all different --I'm not!".

I was OK with the changes to the first LoTR film, since they provided some nice background material from The Silmarillion, but I missed Tom Bombadil as well. I think the following can be said without spoiling the viewing of TTT: One change, meaning bringing the Ring where it never went in the books, made little or no sense.

But on the subject of science fiction movies you love to hate, I'm surprised no one has mentioned... [ducks]... [ducks even more].... T-r-o-n? Ewww. :dead:[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-19-2003, 05:55 PM
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[quoteost_uid0="PointyHairedJedi"][color=#000000ost_uid0]Actually, I am kinda shocked that there has been no mention of [iost_uid0]Insurrection[/iost_uid0] so far....[/colorost_uid0][/quoteost_uid0]
[color=#000000ost_uid0][iost_uid0]Insurrection[/iost_uid0] was great.

Lynch's [iost_uid0]Dune[/iost_uid0] was awful, but I agree that it did about as well as any film adaptation of that book could. I haven't seen the miniseries yet; what I've heard has been so conflicting that I have no idea what to expect.[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-19-2003, 09:26 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]Could someone humor me and explain why giant bugs aren't possible?[/colorost_uid0]
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Old 03-19-2003, 09:38 PM
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[color=#000000ost_uid0]Actually, the giant bugs in particular that aren't possible are bugs like spiders, crickets, butterflies, and other legged bugs. If you've ever really looked at a bug's legs, they're really quite slender. That means an infinitesimal area on the bottoms of the feet for the bug's weight to be supported. Bugs are very light anyway, so when they're tiny they can get away with this.

A huge bug's mass would increase proportional to the cube of its original mass, but its foot area would only increase proportional to the square of its original area. So eventually the bug would get too big to support its own weight, and collapse and die.[/colorost_uid0]
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