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View Poll Results: If you were/are registered as a U. S. voter, who would/did you choose? | |||
John Kerry (Democrat) | 27 | 52.94% | |
George W. Bush (Republican) | 17 | 33.33% | |
"Go ahead. THROW YOUR VOTE AWAY!" | 7 | 13.73% | |
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll |
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#101
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This is an old philosophical problem. At what point does the child cease to be simply a part of the mother and become an indepedant life in it's own right? It is a hard question, but the morality of this, I leave up to the mother. I don't know if anyone should be getting an abortion for this or that reason, but I feel they should have the right to do so. The laws are (or should be) a set of rules that deals with the individuals place within a society. Does society at large have a say over whether or not someone should have a child, moreso than that person herself? I see this as far more morally reprehensive. Quote:
Also, I don't mind a good political debate as long as it's within this dedicated thread. When you have namecalling all over the board, then the problem starts. Gatac
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Katy: Can I have the skill 'drive car off bridge and have parachute handy'? Justin: It's kind of a limited skill. Greg: Depends on how often you drive off bridges. - d02 Quotes |
#102
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I was for Kerry. Simple reason, actually. Four years ago I didn't think Bush had what it took to be a good President. And in the past four years, he has confirmed that suspicion.
OK, the US gets attacked by Al Qaeda, and Bush sends troops to kick their asses. All well and good, until he decides "While we're at it, let's invade some place that has absolutely nothing to do with our current terror problem." Sure, (faulty) intelligence suggested he might have WMDs, but if Saddam tried anything at that point, it would be like holding up a sign to the world saying "NUKE ME." He was contained, and a threat to no other nation. Yes, he was an evil man, but war and armed occupation should always be a last resort. In the meanwhile, domestic policy, which should be the most important thing to the leader of a nation, has effectively been run by various hyper-conservative members of his staff. Don't think I'm bashing the right wing here, I'd bitch just as much if a Democrat in office left all his policy decisions to hyper-liberal staffers. Said hyper-conservatives then proceeded to help push such things as the Patriot Act through Congress while holding up Bush's education initiative, which is one of the few things I find good about him. What's Bush's repsonse to this? Absolutely nothing, just goes on playing Napoleon. And that's the short version.
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Screwing with the Crusader Kings name files: $0 Adding a few modern names: $0 Making a few obscure references: $0 Watching your brother freak out when he realized he just married his heir to "Remilie de Bourgogne": PRICELESS |
#103
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An interesting thought I had was: if 9/11 had happened two months later, do you not think people would be far, far more incesned worldwide?
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! |
#104
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As most of the rest of the world, i voted for John Kerry. I believe honesty is crucial for a politician, and Bush was not honest at all, especially in the iraq issue. I donīt like the way he treates us (i mean, all the non U.S. world) I know that the United States is the world leader nowadays, but we deserve a little more respect. The U.N. has been insulted once and again by this administration...
Well, now Bush has won, so all I can say is...GO BUSH! :cry: :? |
#105
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Gatac, you soulless devil's advocate, you!
I want to start out by voiceing [sic?] my support for laws that allow abortions in cases in which the mother's life has a high chance of being, well, ended, by the act of birth. It's not something I'm completely comfortable with, but makes for a decent compromise. It would still wipe out more than 98% of abortions here in the states (that's according to the Allan Guttmacher Institute, I believe), so I'll take it. Unfortunately, pro-abortion politicians refuse to bend even that far. (Side note: I refer to the two sides as pro and anti abortion, not pro-life and pro-choice. Both are misnomers; choicers because they are supporting a very specific choice, not gun choice or school choice, lifers because most of them support the death penalty) Bloody... my cookies are done, then bed. Must finish this off tommorrow.
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Wowbagger Forum Lurker CURRENTLY: I've finally dived into the "let's everybody make a fan film" Kool-Aid. |
#106
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I'm only a soulless devil's advocate when I argue the moral dimension of this; else, I'm purely being practical.
Not to pounce on it too heavily, but making drugs illegal has driven the whole community underground. People die daily because there is no medical oversight, because the dealers are criminals, and because nobody makes sure that the wares are actually good. Not to mention that it's a massive black hole for money to actively prosecute each and every one. My proposition is thus to cancel the war on drugs and use the cash to take over the legal distribution. Think about what a government-run (or atleast supervised) drug distribution system could do: Collect taxes, guarantee the purity (and thus, relative safety), and probably still have much lower prices than the criminal dealers. Heck, you could pretty much drive an entire sort of criminals out of the country. On the other hand, medical supervision (and, I dunno? Ration cards?) could help to keep the massively deletrous effects of drugs somewhat in check. This doesn't even have to apply to the really hardcore stuff: think about how many people you'd bring away from the underground just by making the (controlled) sale of marijuana legal. After all, the real scoundrels are the dealers, and what could be more effective than driving them out of business? What does this have to do with abortion? Well, in a sense, outlawing it would do to abortion what it has already done to drugs - drive them underground. If you ban abortions, lots of women will still want them, but they'll obtain them from less reputable sources. This is a massive health risk, and if you think abortion kills a lot of innocent lives now, consider how many more potential mothers it will take when it's outlawed. One of the fundamental problems is that you cannot destroy the *idea* of abortion, same as you cannot destroy the *idea* of drugs. The cat's out of the bag and has been for some time. We can either try to whack it and see it jump over the fence, never to return, or we can invite it into our home and make sure it behaves. (Damn, that was a weird analogy.) Gatac
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Katy: Can I have the skill 'drive car off bridge and have parachute handy'? Justin: It's kind of a limited skill. Greg: Depends on how often you drive off bridges. - d02 Quotes |
#107
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I have to say that if 9/11 had happened in november (on the same date) it would have caused a more worldwide outrage....btw, what is 5MV doing for Thursday? (11/11/04)
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! |
#108
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Here in Argentina, abortion is illegal and every day lots of girls die becuase thet get their abortions in unsafe conditions. I am pro abortion if it is performed in the firsts trimester of pregnancy, when it is not "alive". As I see it, is not different from other pregnancy controls such as the "day after" pill. ANd in that way, you prevent many girls from dying.
Of course, it would be better if there was enough education to make everyone conscious about contraceptives and the consecuences of unsafe sex, but thatīs another issue. |
#109
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Don't take this as an attack post -- I'm just answering some of the points you made.
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I guess it's obvious from this post that unlike some people who posted earlier in the thread, I do think abortion is an important enough issue to determine who you vote for....
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FiveMinute.net: because stuff is long and life is short [03:17] FiveMinZeke: Galactica clearly needs the advanced technology of scissors, which get around the whole "yanking on your follicles" problem. [03:17] IJD: cylons can hack any blades working in conjunction |
#110
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2003: A few words on the subject, link to Monkee's site 2002: No Nov. 11 update 2001: Two new fivers, no comment on the date 2000: New fiver, no comment on the date Hmm. Maybe this is something I should work on. Btw, I'm not sure I can picture more worldwide outrage than we had on 9/11.
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FiveMinute.net: because stuff is long and life is short [03:17] FiveMinZeke: Galactica clearly needs the advanced technology of scissors, which get around the whole "yanking on your follicles" problem. [03:17] IJD: cylons can hack any blades working in conjunction |
#111
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Gatac
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Katy: Can I have the skill 'drive car off bridge and have parachute handy'? Justin: It's kind of a limited skill. Greg: Depends on how often you drive off bridges. - d02 Quotes |
#112
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IMO, I would like to see putting 5MNG's "The Wounded" on the front page. I think it best sums up the Cold War veteran's feelings. Its also my favorite episode. There are other 'veteran' shows, but "The Wounded" is the best.
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Kirk: Bones, this man needs medical attention! McCoy: Dammit Jim I'm a Doctor, not a... oh sure! |
#113
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I've heard a few dominant philosophies on the subject: When does Human Life* Begin? At Conception:By this definition, all abortion would be immoral, and so would some morning-after pills when it prevents a fertilized zygote from developing. At Birth: By this definition, all abortion would be legal, (and so would pills) as human life begins at birth, not before. Sometime Between Conception and Birth: By this definition, abortion would be legal or illegal based on the developmental stage of the fetus. Gradually begins throughout, no particular breaking point between alive and not: Abortion in this case would still be debateable, as the fetus is not "entirely" human, but can be more or less so depending on the development, this would likely also be where abortion would be legal or illegal based on the developmental stage of the fetus. *Note: Biologically, the cell is alive even before it is fertilized, but so are the millions of bacteria floating around in our air. Usually, which category one falls in to is determined largely (or entirely) on one's religious beliefs. Click Here for a Table of Abortion Law around the World Quote:
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Truer words were never spoken. Xeroc Central 5MChat: PHP/JS Chat 2.0 Click here to view the chat in progress! |
#114
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Actually, this second part of my response is not going to take as long as I thought, now that Zeke's stolen my thunder on the philosophy of law point.
I prefer to have the law legislate scientific questions based purely based on science. The fetus is an independant human life from conception on. Thus, as a human being, it is protected by our 14th amendment. I don't know what country you hail from, Gatac, so the same may or may not apply to you, but that's as far as the argument needs to go in the States. Now, for women's deaths. I'll be generous and give the number floated by Ellen Goodman and the National Abortion Rights Action League (now called NARAL Pro-Choice America), which was 10,000 pregnant women dying each year from back-alley abortions. (This number is arguably refuted at http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040528.html) Frankly, that's a huge drop from 1,500,000 fetal deaths plus a few hundred women's deaths from "safe, legal, and rare" abortions. Once it is illegal, of course, and now that awareness of the abortion issue is so high, it is likely that massive abortion prevention programs would snap into place around the country. Planned Parenthood may even be forced to hire counselors who counsel! That ends my first response. Next: As I've said, I won't insist on banning all abortions. Just the 99.3% of them, the abortions of convenience. Don't forget the 250,000-strong community of people on the adoption waiting list. As for the morning-after pill, anti-abortion advocates generally ignore the field, not least because its an area on which society is even more touchy than abortion. But you're right; illegalizing the vast majority of abortions would also illegalize the morning-after pill (though not condoms or spermicides or what-have-you). One thing I've never understood, and maybe Vedra can shed some light on this for me: why birth? I mean, if it has the features of a human, isn't it human, whether or not it's attached to someone else by a cord? Why not call it a human at 1 or 8 or 12 years old? I am honestly confused by this. Now I'm starting to feel guilty about ignoring the other sub-topic here. I'll post something about terrorism or tax cuts or something by month's end. We have people on fiveminute from Argentina? Go team! Also, last point (I promise!): Anyone know any good left-wing blogs? I'm looking for something to complement my daily OpinionJournal intake of +5000 words. My theory in life is that all news is biased and the only way to make a good decision is to read the most biased stuff you can find and balance out the extremes, so this is somewhat important.
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Wowbagger Forum Lurker CURRENTLY: I've finally dived into the "let's everybody make a fan film" Kool-Aid. |
#115
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Tarn-Vedra: I just figure I would have a little more credibility and a little more gravitas if you posted too. FiveMinZeke: Yeah, understood. FiveMinZeke: (Oo, I have gravitas?) Tarn-Vedra: Yeah. FiveMinZeke: That does explain why I'm drinking Earl Grey right now.... Tarn-Vedra: Don't forget to tug the front of your shirt, Jean. |
#116
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Interesting posts, guys. As you've probably guessed, I subscribe to the "human life begins at conception" view, and my reasoning is simple: where else do you draw the line? A human doesn't come together like a jigsaw puzzle, where at a certain point you can say this is a complete puzzle, and one piece ago it wasn't. To use a metaphor from my field (math), the development of a human life is a continuous function; there's no jump or break where the fetus suddenly becomes a baby. The only place we can put the marker is at conception, because right there a single, unique organism is formed that didn't exist before.
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FiveMinute.net: because stuff is long and life is short [03:17] FiveMinZeke: Galactica clearly needs the advanced technology of scissors, which get around the whole "yanking on your follicles" problem. [03:17] IJD: cylons can hack any blades working in conjunction |
#117
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Leandro rules!
That is all. (Leandro rules!) |
#118
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Oh damn now I feel I need to contribute. my plan to avoid controversy has failed...
Zeke, I totally agree, "human life begins at conception" is my philosophy too, however the reason people have abortions are not always because they just "want to get rid of it." Financially they may just not be able to care for the baby, or they may be health reasons not to give birth. In the end, it's up to the individual woman who is pregnant. It's HER body that is under discussion and that is a HUGE responsibility. And even more controversially, however a man feels on the subject of abortion, no man can EVER really know what that woman is going through. I know people who have had abortions for totally valid reasons and whether I agreed with them or not I respected that is was THEIR choice, and no one else's. That is my view. Sorry if anyone disagrees.
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Alexia: You have to laugh, or you'd kill yourself xD Lostoyannaya: Yes. Now take that noose off your neck and get down from the chair. IN THAT ORDER. |
#119
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I should point out though that I also agree with a huge chunk of what wowbagger said, and that prevention is "better than cure" so to speak...
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Alexia: You have to laugh, or you'd kill yourself xD Lostoyannaya: Yes. Now take that noose off your neck and get down from the chair. IN THAT ORDER. |
#120
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perhaps (as marplanauta said) a better policy would be better sex education....?
Also, November the 11th isn't just about Vietnam. Perhaps we could have a lack of posting for a while on the forum? (at 11:00 GMT, perhaps?)....just a suggestion Also, maybe 5MV should have some suitable poem or fragment on the front page...personally, I do not believe it is a time for mirth at all. And I agree with Zeke.
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! |
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