BattleStar-eyed wonder

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by ijdgaf

I just thought I'd pop in to say that "Exodus, Part 2" was without a doubt one of the finest hours of sci fi to ever grace television. Or hell -- any medium.

To call it amazing would be an understatement.

Hot frakking damn....

This is exactly what I don't get about you BSGers. Good episode, sure, but how can you possibly claim it's brilliant or groundbreaking? This kind of episode works a certain way; we've seen it with DS9's "The Sacrifice of Angels," with B5's "Endgame." "Exodus II" did nothing special. It was entertaining, it moved the pieces where they needed to go, and that's it.

[Derek]

And besides, "Exodus, Part 2" is where they killed the Professor. Not that the third season has been all that great, but you can't break up the core group. And the new girl they seem to be replacing him with is just annoying. I think I may be done watching this show.

[Zeke]

You're considering slip-Sliding away?

[Gatac]

Regardless of whether you consider the writing or direction groundbreaking, I can't help but have a positive opinion of a show that makes me jump up and cheer. I know they're emotionally manipulating me and I love every second of it.

Take that, objective criticism!

Gatac

[Chancellor Valium]

@Zeke: True, but originality isn't necessarily a good thing. Three words. "Love and Monsters". You'll see. If you haven't already.

That said, while I haven't seen the Exodus double-bill, it doesn't sound like no 'In the Pale Moonlight'.

And I will be raving about that episode for the next twenty years, or at least until it's brilliance is duplicated or outdone.

[Zeke]

I've seen "Love and Monsters." It wasn't without its charm, but yeah, the twist at the end was beyond stupid. Your point is well taken, and I can think of many other cases... "Threshold," for example. It doesn't get much more original than "drive too fast and you're a LIZARD!"

[e of pi]

Well, I'll say this, I must admit that the effects were pretty darn cool. The atmospheric jump is the stuff of legend. Also, the series is going back to its roots a little, and that's cool too. Brilliant? I might not go that far, but I'm still watching the show next week.

[Chancellor Valium]

Originally Posted by Zeke

I've seen "Love and Monsters." It wasn't without its charm, but yeah, the twist at the end was beyond stupid. Your point is well taken, and I can think of many other cases... "Threshold," for example. It doesn't get much more original than "drive too fast and you're a LIZARD!"

Charm? If by charm you mean up-itself, my-aren't-we-clever 'humour', then yes, I suppose 'charm' is as good a word as any.

It makes 'Spock's Brain' look like quality sci-fi. Partly because even Spock's Brain just isn't that stupid. And doesn't contain the following:

1) the abysmal Scooby-Doo crap at the beginning of L&M.
2) An attempt to dismiss the programme's fanbase and any critics of the writer
3) Peter Kay
4) An alien drawn by a nine-year-old
5) A young man trying to seduce an older woman who looks like the rear end of a cow and acts like it.
6) References to fellatio*
7) Rose Tyler in 'Dumb Chavette' mode
8) Jackie Tyler
9) A rating of 6.66m - a clear sign of the damnable craptitude of the episode.

Also, the early drafts turn half of Elton's backstory into a gratuitous continuity reference.

*This further puts toward my own theory that Russell T. Davies can't decide whether to make the programme totally a Children's TV thing, complete with Andy-Pandy, or to use it as a vehicle to exorcise his own personal demons.

Rant? What rant?

[Burt]

Originally Posted by Zeke

This is exactly what I don't get about you BSGers. Good episode, sure, but how can you possibly claim it's brilliant or groundbreaking? This kind of episode works a certain way; we've seen it with DS9's "The Sacrifice of Angels," with B5's "Endgame." "Exodus II" did nothing special. It was entertaining, it moved the pieces where they needed to go, and that's it.

Yeah, I like clever and twisty shows as much as anyone, but sometimes big action bits can do it too...
I still remember sitting and watching Sacrifice of Angels in totally disbelief... This was the bit that so many storylines over the years had worked up too....It was kinda a release. Like shaking a fizzy drink, then finally opening it. I think of them as special episodes. Many shows have them. That one big exciting episode, that any non-fan wouldn't have a clue what was going on, but you, would sell your soul to see...

[ijdgaf]

To explain myself a bit. It goes a little to what Gatac speaks of.

The word that characterizes the episode best is payoff. We've had three episodes of build-up to a conflict that came to fruition in this episode. I didn't find "Exodus, part 2" brilliant because of profound philosophical questions or shocking twists. I found it brilliant because it seemed to so simply pull off the impossible task of giving the audience a satisfactory payoff to what had come before. And it did it with so much damn style. We were told already how clever the battle plan was. What we got didn't fail to deliver -- it did that and then some. Tigh stole two very crucial scenes at both ends of the episode -- his character continues to be absolutely fantastic. And he joins the rank of a dozen characters who got their time in the sun and glowed spectacularly. Ellen. Starbuck. Leoben. Anders. Roslin. Adama. Lee. Baltar. And hell, even Gaeta. Especially Gaeta. There was a profound sense of cause and effect where everybody's actions were plausable and in character. We finally got a hell of a lot of payoff. And it felt damn good.

So this episode didn't make me think too much. But that's just fine. The show does that plenty (and has done so plenty recently). It appealed to a more primitive part of the brain. That happy ending center that BSG never caters to all that often, and as a consequence makes each a treasure. That's not to say all has been won, of course. I bet we see a survivor count next episode and I bet it's way lower. But it was a good day. Full of maneuvers just fantastic enough to drop a jaw and just plausable enough to avoid skepticism.

The rare sort of show that causes me to put random expletives after the word "holy". Damn enjoyable. And yeah, brilliant.

And re: "In The Pale Moonlight" -- part of the reason that episode sticks so well is the way it shows the darkest side in all of us. The dirty side of Utopia. The new Battlestar Galactica lives in that dark side. There couldn't be an equivalent for that episode on the show. It wouldn't have an analog. And I have a hard time seeing a fan of that episode not enjoying RDM's new series.

[Chancellor Valium]

Originally Posted by ijdgaf

And re: "In The Pale Moonlight" -- part of the reason that episode sticks so well is the way it shows the darkest side in all of us. The dirty side of Utopia. The new Battlestar Galactica lives in that dark side. There couldn't be an equivalent for that episode on the show. It wouldn't have an analog. And I have a hard time seeing a fan of that episode not enjoying RDM's new series.

Never said I don't *enjoy* BSG. I just don't rate it as highly as other things. One criticism, however, must be the lack of contrast in the series. There's not even the *occasional* joke. Or even half a joke. There's just dark all the way down.

Don't get me wrong, I like dark, but without light, how can you tell it's dark?

[ijdgaf]

That's not really a fair criticism. The characters on the show joke around all the time, be it Starbuck with her pilots, Adama with Lee... or Tigh... or Roslin... or any of his extended family, really. Doc Cottle makes sarcastic jokes all the time.

And again, the show certainly isn't all dark either. There is a definite contrast, and here it is: a dark, overpowering pessimism makes every victory all the sweeter for the characters. Look at the end of the miniseries. Or "Hand of God". Or "Colonial Day". And now "Exodus, part 2". I hate to bring in the oft-cited argument here, but it many ways it is the opposite of Trek in this respect. Where dark episodes of Trek stood out ("Year of Hell", "In the Pale Moonlight", etc.), the lighter optimistic episodes of BSG stand out in a different way. It gives the show an overall sense that things aren't hopeless in even the bleakest situations. Anyone who says the series is all dark doesn't seem to be paying much attention as far as I can tell.

[Chancellor Valium]

How many actual victories have there been? I don't just mean where they've escaped to fight another day, or not gotten themselves killed for another day, I mean actual, real victories. Where they've actually, really defeated the Cylons. One? Two?

Cottle's remarks are hardly jokes. And in any case, how often does *he* appear? Twice a season?

I'll agree, Trek was too prozac-utopian. But BSG has boxed itself into a corner. It's bleak to the point where it simply can't get that much worse. Soon, they're going to run out of disasters.

[ijdgaf]

Well there are still cylons around, of course. But I can think of three episodes off the top of my head where the cylons were dealt a major strategic blow.

But I wasn't just talking about victories against the cylons. For one, there are a multitude of episodes where a successful mission did not entail major cylon casualties. "Miniseries". "Home". "Scar". "Lay Down Your Burdens".

And its a little silly just to focus on the cylons, since there are many enemies aboard the fleet itself. Does "Colonial Day" not count as an optimistic episode? What about "You Can't Go Home Again."? "Flight of the Phoenix"?

I could certainly add more to these lists. The show certainly depicts a drastic situation and dire actions on the part of the characters. But part of the series' poignancy is that it's not all pessimism.

edit: According to imdb, Doc Cottle has been in eleven episodes so far. Not counting his season three appearance(s?). He was introduced in the fourth episode of season one. That's eleven out of thirty (pre-season three) episodes he's been in. Roughly every third episode.

[Burt]

You know it's too dark when the viewers start topping themselves. To be honest I found B5 kinda dark. I sort of like it, butsort of not. I like being in the Trek universe. It's so dam happy, and warm and fuzzy. But sometimes it is nice to take a dip in the darkside. More so when the effects are that good.

BTW what is that ship on your logo Chancellor? It looks like....The one from Event Horizen...or the one from Starship troopers...

[Chancellor Valium]

A success doesn't really generate an alleviation of tension. You don't tend to think 'Yes! I've finished one page of the hundred-thousand page form I have to fill in to get my bank card cancelled because someone stole it. What an achievement! I'm proud of myself!"

@Burt: B5 wasn't that dark...In some ways I'd describe it more as...gothic. Particularly the Shadows.

re: The Ship - Starship Troopers...Event Horizon?!

This, young fella-me-spoon is Discovery One!

[ijdgaf]

Did Adama's Earth speech in the miniseries not alleviate tension? Or the reconcilliation of Adama and Roslin and their subsequent return from Kobol with a new clue on the search for Earth? Or Starbuck's return from Caprica with her posse of survivors?

[Chancellor Valium]

Adama's Earth speech reads like someone desparately trying to convince themself of something as much as their audience.

Adama and Roslin - that was just a resolution of their own screw-up.

Starbuck's survivors are just more mouths to feed, and more people to protect. Sure, there's a small amount of hope, but at the same time they're another problem.

[ijdgaf]

I'm not sure where you're getting these flaws from. For one, Adama has never sounded desperate. For two, the "more mouths to feed" argument is your own, and not something the show brought up. It's your outlook that's pessimistic there, not the show's. And for three, how is that not a textbook case of the aleviation of tension? (Most of) our characters lost on Kobol are back, the government/military schism has been healed, and our crew finally has a clue where to head to find Earth. How is that not an alleviation of tension? How is that not optimistic?

[ijdgaf]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that season three is at least as good as season one. Certainly better than season two. Anybody else agree?