Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

[Standback]

Gatac - I confess that I'm currently quite afraid to rewatch the original trilogy. Because I've watched each one once, years ago. And yes, they are campy movies, and are not exactly full of profound intellectual insights.

But, until I do rewatch them, I can safely make the following statements:

* The characters were infinitely better-done. I can vouch for neither dialogue nor acting - though I'm fairly certain neither were as abysmal as in RotS - but they were better conceived, more interesting, and more sympathetic. Nobody was whiny, pouty, or otherwise exaspertingly adolescant. Luke, Leia and Han Solo played off each other, interacted with each other. They were active, dynamic, interesting (in fact, the parts of the prequels I did enjoy were those of Anakin and Obi-Wan bantering during missions). The Bad Guys were present as more than lightsaber-fodder. C3PO and R2D2 were actual characters. And so on, and so forth.
* The movies had actual suspense. The prequels had almost no characters whose fate we don't already know from the original trilogy... and in RotS, every single plot element was painfully evident from the first ten minutes.
* The original trilogy had many memorable scenes and lines. "Use the Force" and "I am your father, Luke!" are now staples of popular culture, because the movies were well-done enough to make these lines memorable. (If RotS turns out to be at that level of memorability, and I start hearing "Only the Sith speak in absolutes, Anakin!" left and right, I am going to slit my wrists.)
* While SFX definitely contributed to the original trilogy's original success, it does not account for the vast number of younger fans who first watched it long after its original SFX ceased to be revolutionary. Hence, it's safe to say these movies have significant quality other than their SFX. Whereas the prequels seem more concerned with CGI than plot or acting, with certain scenes looking as if they were written with a spin-off computer game in mind.

What it boils down to is this: I feel the original trilogy had many very good things about, very few bad, and almost no very-bad. And the prequels, RotS included, had many very bad things about them, fairly few good, and almost no very-good.

Scooter- because occasionally, and particularly in the presence of extreme amounts of boring programming homework, I enjoy a good grouse. And because I'm disturbed by the widespread acceptence and enjoyment of films devoid of quality.

[Gatac]

Hm. Let's see about that.

Luke annoyed me. Always has. Throughout the entire damn trilogy. Leia barely manages to rise above her mother as far as I'm concerned. (With the added penalty that Natalie Portman is much easier on the eyes, in my humble opinion.) I'll give you Han Solo, but Harrison Ford also happens to be one of my favourite actors. As for the baddies: Moff Tarkin is your basic "bad guy" cliche, as is the Emperor. The only one who had any menace in him was Darth Vader. The rest of 'em? Fuggetaboutit. (And don't start with Boba Fett, I to this day don't understand how the hell anyone can consider this guy to be a good villain.) C3PO was always a running joke, just like R2D2 has always been a rolling plot device. (Oh, and original Yoda versus the livelier, kickass prequel version? No competition.)

I suppose I can give you suspense, but honestly, I think that's more because of the fact that all three prequels were put under the microscope and dissected for months before they ever hit the screen. Nothing beyond the broadest plot points of the prequels is actually spoiled in the original trilogy.

More memorable scenes because it was new back then. The dialogue may have lost some innocence, but I don't think it got much worse. Lucas can't write dialogue, period.

I submit that many younger fans have seen the Special Edition, which has had some of the worse original SFX redone.



I'm not saying that I don't like the older movies, or that I think the prequels are better. But I don't think there's the big drop in quality everybody claims. The gungans were annoying? Good god, does anyone remember the ewoks? They got a freaking cartoon and two made-for-TV movies!

...maybe I really don't get it.

Gatac

[evay]

The original trilogy, while styled as '40s action pulp matinee, was based on the Hero's Journey, which is about as classic a mythological story-structure as you can get. The prequel trilogy meandered.

Lucas himself said (either in Newsweek or EW, I've forgotten), that when he came up with the story of Anakin becoming Vader, 60% of it needed to be in EpIII. Therefore, he explained, he had to take the other forty percent of the story and spread it out over two movies. "That gave me room to noodle around," was I believe almost his exact quote.

This is the reason the original three can be silly but are ultimately a good story, while the prequel three rarely even get up to the level of guilty pleasure. There's less there there.

I agree about Portman vs. Fisher in looks, but I prefer Leia to Padmé. Leia was a princess who could shoot a blaster, conduct negotiations, banter with a mercenary, and strangle Jabba. Padmé started a queen, demoted herself to senator, and ended as a helpless, heartbroken fashion victim.

[Chancellor Valium]

@evay, let's not forget that it borrowed a lot of ideas lock, stock (such as the entrance credits, episode numbers, cloud city etc) from the Flash Gordon films of the '30s. So the 30s/40s feel is........difficult to avoid......Although I'm not sure if I prefer Ming the Merciless to Palpatine or not....

On the subject of Palpatine, is it just me, or were his lines worse in this film? "The FULL POWER of the Dark Side!" - and it's been on charge for the last four-hundred years or something?

[Standback]

Gatac -

* I'd suggest that your disdain of Luke and Leia is not exactly the norm. Certainly I've never heard general opinion of the two to be anywhere near as terrible as Anakin and Padme. Secondly, L&L weren't written with their core attributes being negative and annoying ones - namely "sulky" and "dishrag."

* Vader was a good enough villian to carry the film. Cliche's abounded indeed, but were done with a minimum amount of competence, and all in all added to the movie. And Jabba is memorable.

* C3PO and R2D2 were certainly comic relief and plot devices - but fairly well implemented ones. They were characters, with presence, and weren't hauled in for a few minutes a movie ("Look, look! It's ANOTHER character from the original films! Because we can't think up any new ones! Except for Jar-Jar!")

* The "new" Yoda is "kick-ass" - which is nice, and cool, but not very interesting beyond "look, another muppet battle scene." And the only reason it works well is because of the stark contrast to the wise-mentor character established in the originals.

I suppose I can give you suspense, but honestly, I think that's more because of the fact that all three prequels were put under the microscope and dissected for months before they ever hit the screen. Nothing beyond the broadest plot points of the prequels is actually spoiled in the original trilogy.

I heard nothing about the prequels prior to watching them. Nothing. Going into RotS, I know from the original trilogy and the previous prequels as follows:
A. Anakin will be turned to the Dark Side.
B. He will fight Obi-Wan, and be left scarred, thus turning him into Darth Vader.
C. The Republic will be turned into the Empire.
D. All the Jedi will be killed.
E. Palpatine is the Sith Lord, and behind pretty much everything bad.
F. Padme will give birth to Luke and Leia, and die.

Within the first ten-fifteen minutes of the movie, we know that the only character depth established in Anakin is:
G. Anakin has premonitions of Padme's death, and wants to stop it.

Drawing the lines here is pretty simple. E will take advantage of G to achieve A. If absolutely nothing happens unexpectedly, C and D will follow. A leads to B, F happens. End of movie.
So what suspense? How Anakin will be turned to the Dark Side? We know who's trying for it and we can see how it's going to happen. Can Anakin save his wife? We know he can't. Can the Jedi bring an end to the war? Nope. Who will live and who will die? We know that already. How will the war end, and how will the Jedi die? Well, this is tricky, but one might venture to guess that they'll be killed in CGI battle scenes. Or in CGI battle scenes with Anakin. Who's the evil mastermind behind all this? The only suspense even hinted at, but no, gave that away earlier to be nice and ominous.

More memorable scenes because it was new back then. The dialogue may have lost some innocence, but I don't think it got much worse. Lucas can't write dialogue, period.

"It was new back then" carries a lot of weight. If RotS had something that was new in it back now, I'd like it a lot more. As for the original dialogue - you may be correct on this point, as I don't remember. I hope to g-d that you're not. If I rewatch the originals and the dialog's as bad as RotS, I'm going to disrespect myself of five years back to no end, as well as fandom at large.

I submit that many younger fans have seen the Special Edition, which has had some of the worse original SFX redone.

Firstly, teens loved Star Wars in the years between 1977 and 1997. And IIRC, the 1997 effects were nowhere near as revolutionary for their time as the originals were - or, I believe, as the prequels are. And secondly, the SFX weren't the only claim-to-fame of the entire movie.

Good god, does anyone remember the ewoks? They got a freaking cartoon and two made-for-TV movies!

I'm not arguing for the cartoon and the TV movies. I'm arguing for the original trilogy, and completely ignoring any spinoffs. Return of the Jedi was a solid film, in which the Ewoks might not have been the most brilliant idea in the world, but certainly were nowhere near as irritating and idiotic as JarJar.

[Opium]

does anyone remember the ewoks? They got a freaking cartoon and two made-for-TV movies!

First off, when I was a play/preschooler, I LOVED THE EWOKS! EWOKS RULED! Don't bash the ewoks! Now that I have off my chest...

I prefer Leia to Padmé. Leia was a princess who could shoot a blaster, conduct negotiations, banter with a mercenary, and strangle Jabba. Padmé started a queen, demoted herself to senator, and ended as a helpless, heartbroken fashion victim.

Too true. Padme had all the ability to become kick-ass and even die herocially fighting her now-evil husband, while giving life to her children. Instead, she was like, "Well, he's hot, how evil can he be?" and got strangled. In a very unconvincing, ugly "maternity" outfit. (and there are plently of good ones these days...she could have looked pregnant AND be fashionably dressed)

[KillerGodMan]

In my opinion, I liked the Saber Duels.

That was it.

I rank the movies as; 5, 6, 4, 1, 3, 2. I thought 6 was the best before, but the new version brought it down, and I wsa so horrified, I fogot what happened at the end of the original. So 5 is now the best,

3 was awful, but not as bad as 2.

I'd make arguements, but you guys have already done that.

[Gatac]

I end up with 5,4,3,6,2,1 just in case anyone's counting.

Gatac

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by Gatac

I end up with 5,4,3,6,2,1 just in case anyone's counting.
Gatac

I agree with that, except it would be 5,4,3,6. As far as I'm concerned any movie in which Jar Jar talks is voted off the island.

[Celeste]

I'm with Gatac on the listing. See, i'm not crticising the special effects or the poor language. I'm all about the symbolism. And star wars is chocked full of it. George Lucas is the master of symbolism. And every time I watch one of his movies I find more. From shadows, to the way the camera is positioned, it all means something. That is what makes this is a great movie for me. It ties in all the other symbolism from the other movies. Explains fully what happens, and makes the other movies that much better.

[Standback]

Now that's a more interesting argument, Celeste. I'd be interested in seeing specific examples of this. I recall some highly-symbolic moments standing out nicely, but few. It's quite possible I missed a lot of them. I'd be happy to hear any specific examples you can give - though I guess it's difficult to show me how the camera's positioned via forum. :\

[Derek]

I agree there is symbolism in the movie, it's just that it doesn't (in my mind) make the movie better most of the time. I do have to say I liked the symbolism of Padme dying during childbirth at the same time as Annakin dying during Vader-birth. Or is that parallelism? Whatever.