BattleStar-eyed wonder - Page 2 - The Five-Minute Forums

Chancellor Valium · #21 07-20-2006, 10:53 PM

Um, Zeke, the new Doctor Who is about as depressing as walking in a field of pansies in the bright sunshine with Eddie, the central computer of the Heart of Gold [provided you added legs for him/it]. RNT even designed it specifically to be 'upbeat' and have a 'positive' air. Just thought I'd say that first of all

Secondly: Most Star Trek is fairly formulaic and dull, IMO. DS9 being the exception in that it broke the mould rather by admitting - SHOCK! HORROR! That the galaxy was not starkly divided between 'Goodies' and 'Baddies', and that CONTROVERSY! HERESY! - the Federation was not whiter than white (they'd been buying black-market Daz - always buy the retail version, folks...). Seriously. Single episode adventure, the Glorious Federation Triumphs, move on. Occasonal two-parters, but They All Live Happily Ever After at the end of the episode. All right, it's not quite so bad in VOY, but it still happens. In DS9 characters do develop, at least...The most exciting main-character event to happen in TNG was that Tasha Yar died, right at the beginning. Ooo.

Anyhow.

One of the great reasons for liking BSG for me is that it's learnt all the good lessons from B5 - or at least pretends pretty well - without some of the pre-DS9 "whiter-than-white Earth" thing (and better dialogue - is there a single first-season episode where Sinclair doesn't mention something like "this could destabilise the very foundation of this station - peace.", owtte?)

Oh, and am I the only one who finds Baltar's way of speechifying an amusing parody of Chairman Blair?

Zeke · #22 07-20-2006, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Valium

Um, Zeke, the new Doctor Who is about as depressing as walking in a field of pansies in the bright sunshine with Eddie, the central computer of the Heart of Gold [provided you added legs for him/it]. RNT even designed it specifically to be 'upbeat' and have a 'positive' air.

Perhaps compared to earlier Doctor Who series, but it's still darker than most Trek. The Doctor (Eccleston more than Tennant) has such a deep sadness to him now that he's the last Time Lord; it doesn't often show, but it's always there. And the nature of the series allows more characters to die, because most places the Doctor goes, he doesn't come back.

I have been a little annoyed with the overly convenient endings of some episodes. "The Doctor Dances" was one thing because the Doctor exulted in the fact that "everyone lives" for once, but since then we've had "New Earth" and "The Idiot's Lantern" with similar too-easy endings. The Tenth Doctor's only really costly victory (that I've seen so far) was in "The Age of Steel," though you must admit that one was pretty grim.

Derek · #23 07-20-2006, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Valium

Secondly: Most Star Trek is fairly formulaic and dull, IMO. DS9 being the exception in that it broke the mould rather by admitting - SHOCK! HORROR! That the galaxy was not starkly divided between 'Goodies' and 'Baddies', and that CONTROVERSY! HERESY! - the Federation was not whiter than white

Wow. Obviously you and I just look at stories in different ways. TOS and early-to-mid TNG wasn't about the "Star Trek universe," it was, as TMP stated, about the "Human Adventure." The Federation and the constructions around it and the characters in it were very often just means to an end. They were trying to say something and they used the Trek universe as the vehicle to do it. Sure, sometimes they'd have the fun scifi plot or humorous plot, but very often it was supposed to be black and white. The Enterprise crew was supposed to be the good guys, who helped the helpless and righted wrongs and hopefully said something to you the viewer while doing it.

As Star Trek grew, the writers became more interested in the universe they were creating and hence started to tell more stories about the universe and about the characters. These are still good stories, and I have enjoyed them, but I don't watch them in the same way as I watch the old Trek.

About BSG: I have tried to watch the show. I watched a few random episodes in the middle of the first season, and recently I Netflixed the miniseries, but honestly, it's not doing much for me. I could keep watching it, but I'm not seriously inclined to.

Chancellor Valium · #24 07-20-2006, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke

Perhaps compared to earlier Doctor Who series, but it's still darker than most Trek. The Doctor (Eccleston more than Tennant) has such a deep sadness to him now that he's the last Time Lord; it doesn't often show, but it's always there. And the nature of the series allows more characters to die, because most places the Doctor goes, he doesn't come back.

I have been a little annoyed with the overly convenient endings of some episodes. "The Doctor Dances" was one thing because the Doctor exulted in the fact that "everyone lives" for once, but since then we've had "New Earth" and "The Idiot's Lantern" with similar too-easy endings. The Tenth Doctor's only really costly victory (that I've seen so far) was in "The Age of Steel," though you must admit that one was pretty grim.

Not really. It's all sentiment sans emotion - and in the end feels like little more than sap, IMO.

Burt · #25 07-21-2006, 03:55 AM

I think I tend to follow Derek more - Star Trek wasn't trying to show everything as perfect and people as flawless beings - they were more metaphors. To explore different parts of Humanity. (Racial differences, The Cold War, etc). Trying to show that there Humanity could achieve more though co-operation, and putting aside differences. And like he said, that was up till mid Next Gen. Now it's more focused on action type stories (I still like!), which I guess is in part due to the need to compete with other sci-fi shows. I suppose back in the original days and at the start of Next Gen there wasn't much competition, so they could do more slower 'moral' stories.
To be honest thought, I caught a BSG on TV today (Remake). It was the one about a Cylon suicide bombing, and then a big old trial to find out who was to blame. And as I watched it, I realized, it was very like 'The Drumhead', an old Next Gen episode. Yes, more glitz and glamour - and certainly more kissing- but they were so alike even down to the 'Captain gets Tried at the end and proclaims it a witch-hunt'. I suppose even though Star Trek never really had the sex, drugs and rock&roll in it, so long as the story had meaning, it didn't really matter.
As for Doctor Who I think this series has quite a bit of depth and sadness in it. As a companion, the Doctor seemed very close to Rose. A fair few other companions seemed rather 'throwaway'. But the way this was played, it always felt to me that there was always a worry in the Doctors head about the safety of Rose. I wonder if they’ll be able to add this to the next assistant. Plus there's him being the (So far) last Time lord. He doesn't seem too happy bout that. And while he's never been a fan of the Daleks, he's turned really quite cold towards them, with what’s happened with his race. I don't know, to me the whole thing has a much darker feel. (Again I mean against the older series - compared to some American shows it's practically the Teletubbies) Even the TARDIS is different. Darker, spookier.

Chancellor Valium · #26 07-21-2006, 04:08 PM

But there isn't any substance - everyone always lives happily ever after at the end of the episode...TPOTW - everyone is ressurected, for example.

Burt · #27 07-21-2006, 08:26 PM

Sometimes I think the journey can be just as important. I suppose the ends can be a little bit 'cop-outs', but it's usually the episodes that are trying to make a point. 'The measure of a man' for example - Oh how I love that episode - nothing really changes by the end. But it was making a point - That machines are our equals.
Freedom to the Washing Machines! Long live the Toasters!
I kid. I get the really meaning - respect all people, everyone/thing equal.

Chancellor Valium · #28 07-22-2006, 09:57 PM

"The Measure of a Man"? Don't recognise the title, I'm afraid...The TNG Data Trial one?

Burt · #29 07-23-2006, 12:47 AM

Yeah, thats the one. Nothing better than a picard speech. God he's good at them. I must have watches that episode 100's of times. The Drumhead is another good Picard Speechy episode.

Chancellor Valium · #30 07-23-2006, 01:06 PM

Ahh...Picard speeches. I wonder - lock Picard and Sheridan in the same room - who would have the last word?

mudshark · #31 07-23-2006, 07:09 PM

If they chew each others' ears off and there's no one else around to hear, did either of them actually say anything?

PointyHairedJedi · #32 07-23-2006, 10:19 PM

Sheridan? Hmph. Some people just don't know when to stay dead.

Sa'ar Chasm · #33 07-23-2006, 10:30 PM

Give the guy a break. Sometimes it takes people a couple of tries to get something right. Practice makes perfect.

PointyHairedJedi · #34 07-23-2006, 10:35 PM

I think Baal should definitely give a helping hand with that one.

Burt · #35 07-24-2006, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointyHairedJedi

Sheridan? Hmph. Some people just don't know when to stay dead.

What is it with the dying nowadays, anyway? Sheridan twice. Buffy, at least twice, (Gonna be three in the end) maybe more. Picard's had it a few times. I know some guy in StarGate kicked the bucket more than once (Jackson?) And Captain Scarlet? Just don't ask.
So is dying the new black then?
I prefer the good old days in literature where people didn't just 'die' and come back again willy-nilly.....wait..
Sherlock Homes....
Ok scratch that.

PointyHairedJedi · #36 07-24-2006, 09:21 AM

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

Duncan Idaho pwns all.

Chancellor Valium · #37 07-24-2006, 09:41 AM

Since when was Sherlock Holmes literature? It's badly written - it gets worse as time goes on, in fact - and illogical. Take The Speckled Band - Conan Doyle has Holmes solve the case by knowing more than we do, and by a very contrived last cry from the girl. She could've said something a bit more bloody useful...

As for not dying, I think we perhaps don't value life as greatly any more, and just expect magical escapes.

The good Doctor might have something else to do with it, of course

Zeke · #38 07-24-2006, 10:52 AM

Valium, I've officially lost all hope of you and me ever seeing eye to eye on the quality of stuff. There's very little I enjoy more than a Sherlock Holmes story.

PointyHairedJedi · #39 07-24-2006, 04:44 PM

Oh, they are immensely entertaining, that's for sure, but hardly of great literary worth. I personally find Agatha Chirstie to be a far keener observer of human nature than Doyle, though Sherlock Holmes undoubtedly remains one of the better characters ever created.

Burt · #40 07-24-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke

Valium, I've officially lost all hope of you and me ever seeing eye to eye on the quality of stuff. There's very little I enjoy more than a Sherlock Holmes story.

lol. I suppose it was a little harsh, Shelock Holmes isn't known as a classic for nothing....
But I have to say, it's not really my cup of tea. I'm more a Agatha Christie fan. I say 'more-of', I mean totally! I think she's fantastic! I love her stories, I think they're first class. I really love the idea she has of 'Playing Fair' - by giving the reader the clues they need to solve the crime.
To be honest, I think she is one of the best writers in the world ever. And her booksales are not to be taken lightly - 2nd best selling author ever, after Shakespeare (And in my humble opinion - I think he's totally crap! Dull writing and almost no relevence to today's world!) and usually first best selling in a country (i.e. France).
Go Go Christie!