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View Poll Results: Does a love/like of Sci-fi clash with religion? Do you think it leads to people being less religious | |||
Less inclined to follow a religion | 3 | 20.00% | |
More inclined | 0 | 0% | |
No clash between a like of Science fiction and Religious beliefs | 12 | 80.00% | |
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll |
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#21
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^ I read the first book in a Christian SF series once - what basically happened at the end was that a load of persecuted Christians (persecuted by Space Romans, pretty much) got saved at the end by a miracle. Some might call it devotional, but I just call it lazy writing. :P
(I wish I could remember what it was called, but I can't for the life of me. It was pretty awful stuff anyhow.) Here's a wacky point - given that there are so many branches of Christianity alone, who's interpretation is "right"? And if it's the case that they're all right, then doesn't that by logical extension mean that quite a few other religions are right too?
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Mason: Luckily we at the Agency use use a high-tech piece of software that will let us spot him instantly via high-res satellite images. Sergeant: You can? That's amazing! Mason: Yes. We call it 'Google Earth'. - Five Minute 24 S1 (it lives, honest!) "Everybody loves pie!" - Spongebob Squarepants |
#22
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Hm. Didn't intend to find myself posting in this thread, but when we talk about CS Lewis, it's very hard to keep me out.
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1. Everyone's resistant to change. Has Star Trek VI taught us nothing? 2. Religions are depicted as being resistant to change because, by and large, a lot of legislation and societal mores are moving away from what the religions teach. If that trend were to reverse, I think you would see religions embracing the changes that would occur, while today's "progressives" would in turn become resistant to change, becoming essentially conservatives. And wouldn't that be hilarious. Quote:
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"Please, Aslan," said Lucy, "what do you call soon?" "I call all times soon," said Aslan; and instantly he vanished away and Lucy was alone with the Magician. |
#23
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Did you know that the tenets of this country's law is based on thousand year old beliefs? Does that make it outmoded and wrong? Does that mean that all of a sudden its right to steal? For the record, Christianity is based on two-thousand year old laws and beliefs. That still doesn't mean that it is wrong to love your neighbour as yourself.
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! |
#24
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The problem being, a lot of "Christians" don't.
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Mason: Luckily we at the Agency use use a high-tech piece of software that will let us spot him instantly via high-res satellite images. Sergeant: You can? That's amazing! Mason: Yes. We call it 'Google Earth'. - Five Minute 24 S1 (it lives, honest!) "Everybody loves pie!" - Spongebob Squarepants |
#25
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My take on it is basically "Believe what you want, but let us believe what we want". I don't mean this in a bad way, but it seems religion goes wrong when the believers try to muscle in on "heathen" territory.
Which is why I think religious education needs to be more widespread, but cover the world's major religions in greater variety. The ethical rules a society depends on for existence aren't unique to any one creed; agree on them, the rest is your business. Yes, this has several funky spots (What happens to your children? What if your beliefs are harmful to yourself?), but I think that can be worked out. I dread the alternative where everything I do that doesn't follow the one true religion is automatically suspect; there is no morality without choice. I know, I'm exagerating, but let me dig out one of the great debates of our time: stem-cell research. It is my opinion that if everyone directly involved in the process - donors, scientists, medical professionals and patients - are okay with it, the greater population is free to not accept these methods, but not in trying to keep it out of everyone's hands. I do know that many religious orientations feature a strong "save the unbelievers from themselves" theme, but this is where the fun stops for me; it's not religious tolerance to let somebody harass and decry other beliefs. To wrap this up, here's a quote from Boondock Saints, where a handful of heavily-armed sociopaths make my point. Quote:
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Katy: Can I have the skill 'drive car off bridge and have parachute handy'? Justin: It's kind of a limited skill. Greg: Depends on how often you drive off bridges. - d02 Quotes |
#26
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Yes change in the law can be hard, but it can come round, because the law of a country is not the basis of that countries beliefs - it's an extension of the countries needs. Do we need to protect against theft? Yes, that’s why we have laws against them. Do we need to protect against people of different sexual orientations marrying? No. That’s why the idea of changing laws to 'Outlaw' things that a people 'don't like' is so dangerous. But laws do change - Religious 'Laws' do not. They can't because, how can you change something that was supposedly influenced by a God? You can't. What was written then has to stay right up till now. But the problem is....then doesn't always work, with now. Quote:
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Fate: Protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise... Fate: Also beats the merry hell out of the Battlestar Galactica. -------------------------------------------------- House Quote of the Day! "I was curious. But since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous to me." Dr House MD I don't think that metaphor was actually designed to warn cats. Dr Wilson MD (Just) ------------------------------------------------- |
#27
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I'm sorry, but this is a particularly sensitive topic for me as I'm a quarter Irish.
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! |
#28
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And come on. Talk about blaming the victim! Nice to see, that if insulted, the ‘Holy goodness’ of the church comes crashing down, and they are happy to damage others. Quote:
God is eternal God is unchanging Then God is wrong Yes, somewhat of a sensitive topic for me, being Gay myself. Quote:
They have not been alive for 500 years. Just the last few. It really does make me sick. For your information, my mother is Irish and Catholic. I’ve been to and studied Ireland many times. I’m very well aware of the topic. I’m still very well aware that there is no need to act like that, because of a difference in Nationality/Religion. As a sidebar, should the Native Americans be allowed to kill American’s? By right, their suffering was much worse. And the Australian Aborigines?
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Fate: Protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise... Fate: Also beats the merry hell out of the Battlestar Galactica. -------------------------------------------------- House Quote of the Day! "I was curious. But since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous to me." Dr House MD I don't think that metaphor was actually designed to warn cats. Dr Wilson MD (Just) ------------------------------------------------- |
#29
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That's like blaming all gay men and women for the actions of a few rapists. Quote:
If you were really listening to his speech, you wouldn't make such generalisations on what he said. There is no doctrine condemning homosexuality. In fact, if you knew the first thing about Catholicism, you would know that homosexuality is fine with the Church. Sex that is not for reproductive purposes is not. Those are the boundaries. At least try to read up before arguing these things. You say 'Back in God's day', but what you mean is back in the day when men were not afraid to hide behind God as an excuse for such things. You're right. The law today is in general pretty good. In our opinion. In two hundred years, this time may be looked back on with horror as an era of hedonistic debauchery on a massive scale... Quote:
I'm Roman Catholic, so congratulations, you've insulted me, too Quote:
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! Last edited by Chancellor Valium; 06-20-2006 at 07:05 PM. |
#30
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Okay, okay. Let's calm down and just agree that there will obviously never be a resolution. I think all the bases have been covered, and now you two are starting to decend into insults. Cool it, I think this thread's useful lifespan is over.
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e of pi, fastest keyboard in the fora. e of pi: I know you have too much free time. Ddoof: HEY! e of pi: Well, so does anyone who posts on 5M.net. It comes from the extra 55 minutes. We are the BSG. Your resources and injokes wil be added to our own, depleting your fanbase. Resistance is futile. So say we all. Member of the Persons Who Believe that Ryan Connors Leslie Should Have Lines in Other Series Since He's Hardly In TOS Fivers |
#31
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Great idea - e! That's right, lets sweep our problems under the carpet and pretend they're not there!
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! |
#32
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A person in the Church is within the Umbrella of those rules and ideas. It' impose's those ideas on them. Quote:
By the way, The Catholic Church are against Gay people. It's clear. To say there're not, is just being ignorant. Being part of a Religon is a choice. You choose to do that. I'm Gay, by...I don't know, nature...chemicals in the brain, DNA. Out of my control. See the difference? You choose it. I didn't. Telling me I must be Abstain from sex just because that Church dissaproves of it, is just plain unfair. That is the Sickening Ideas of the Church. 'We don't like what you do. Stop it, or we'll attack you.' Intolerence is an ugly thing. In any case. You'll never see my point of view. Clearly, you like your Religon. I most certainly will never see your side. Ever watch the X-Men Movie? It's always easy to dismiss 'outsiders' till it happens to you or somebody close to you.
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Fate: Protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise... Fate: Also beats the merry hell out of the Battlestar Galactica. -------------------------------------------------- House Quote of the Day! "I was curious. But since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous to me." Dr House MD I don't think that metaphor was actually designed to warn cats. Dr Wilson MD (Just) ------------------------------------------------- |
#33
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! |
#34
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Just because I don't agree with your ideas, doen't mean I won't listen.
And because I have other opinions, I'm on a high Horse? Mate. Swearing?
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Fate: Protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise... Fate: Also beats the merry hell out of the Battlestar Galactica. -------------------------------------------------- House Quote of the Day! "I was curious. But since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous to me." Dr House MD I don't think that metaphor was actually designed to warn cats. Dr Wilson MD (Just) ------------------------------------------------- |
#35
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I seem to recall that a similar debate sunk the Abortion thread...so guys, please, settle down. You're not action heroes locked in a mortal struggle.
And I'd really like to debate this further. So here goes my part: Regarding Christian acceptance of Homosexuality, this is a rather sad case of the people who make the most noise being heard. Yes, Christianity has its extremists, and they're shouting really loud. If there's something to lament here it's that the many decent Christians never seem to get on TV and say that all the "religious" guys on there are blatantly pandering to the extreme right wing. I don't know if the majority of Christians would come out to say that they outright support homosexuality, but I'm sure most of them do not actively care either way. Live and let live. While I agree that homosexuality is how you're born (or become at a young age), the subculture does seem to gather what I've often seen in minorities, real or imagined: persecution complex. I'm not saying it happens to everyone, I'm not saying that gay people are perfectly safe everywhere, but alas, thou doth protest too much, occasionally. It's what made Feminism and Black Power nearly unbearable to me. At a certain point, drawing attention to your (legitimate) concerns becomes simply drawing attention to yourself. [If I was mean and cranky, I'd point out how insufferably stupid many ads these days portray caucasian males, as if empowering women requires that their husbands/boyfriends become idiots. I don't call this enlightened.] Tolerance cuts both ways. You do what you want as long as you let me do what I want. Trying to cast criticism of your position as persecution of your perceived minority status is wrong. Gatac
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Katy: Can I have the skill 'drive car off bridge and have parachute handy'? Justin: It's kind of a limited skill. Greg: Depends on how often you drive off bridges. - d02 Quotes |
#36
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I don't expect you to actually accept any of what I say, but I felt the need to set the record straight. And frankly, if I were so unfortunate as to fall into the category of your 'mate', I would not be around much longer to suffer in it. My swearing simply indicates a fraction of the degree to which you angered me. Oh, and a final nitpick - you don't need a capital for 'horse'.
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! Last edited by Chancellor Valium; 06-21-2006 at 06:09 PM. |
#37
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It's funny, because I never really cared either way what people thought. Never bothered me. Some friends and family pointed out how there were...people who were less than tolerent of being Gay around, but I never really noticed it or if I did - care. Then I started to learn more about The whole Gay rights thing and a lot of points and areas with some religons clashed rather hard. And the more I think about it, the more it annoys me. The Christian Church and Islamic Council of Britain were very insistant on their views against Civil Partnerships. I know Gatac, you don't mean any harm by what you're saying, and to be honest all the Feminism and Black Power stuff does start to grate on ( I mean, I'm not even sure what terms are ok to say anymore!) and god forbid I ever turn in to a person that becomes 'minority-centred', sidebar: I read a letter that a guy wrote in to a magazine where he wanted all shops to chage the name of 'Faggots' (A type of Welsh food) because it's rude to Gay people. Thats just too, too far. But the point is, I've never been a fan of Religon. I seen certain Religons really mess up two friends. Starting off on that base, I find myself, everyday, reading in Books, Newspapers, Internet, etc of different Religon's 'Problems' against not just myself but anyone who is different. How they oppose getting married, or speak out against how Gay people with corrupt others. And you know what I find that it annoys me. What I find amazing, is how Religon is still so...'protected', when it comes to a person with views and critisim, yet it's ok for a mainstream church it come out with the statments like they do against a whole group of people. And yes some people will say the statments shouldn't be misunderstood etc. But even the basic words they use, 'Sin', 'morally disordered'. I really don't need to be hearing these things about me. It's just not Cricket.
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Fate: Protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise... Fate: Also beats the merry hell out of the Battlestar Galactica. -------------------------------------------------- House Quote of the Day! "I was curious. But since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous to me." Dr House MD I don't think that metaphor was actually designed to warn cats. Dr Wilson MD (Just) ------------------------------------------------- |
#38
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All right, yes, its a rather paranoid perspective, but in part its true. This country, and the US and most other places that were under British Rule at some point are and were virulently anti-Catholic, and developed all sorts of increasingly insidious propaganda against Catholics, which is all nonsense. Having researched many of the accusations laid against Catholicism, I've found few which have an actual grounding in fact. What we see now is simply the overlaying of this specifically anti-Catholic view onto the all religious beliefs. I think. An example of this is in regards to homosexuality, where the actual ethical beliefs have been misinterpreted by the mass media over such a long time that now many assume it to be true. In the case of Catholicism, if homosexuality in itself - the attraction of those of one sex to others of the same sex - was considered wrong, then why would the Pope have recently relaxed the rules on celibate gay priests? Frankly, while I'm very sorry for your friends, religion is what you make of it, IMO. If you interpret the symbols the right way, God can want you to wage war, or eat spaghetti.
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O to be wafted away From this black aceldama of sorrow; Where the dust of an earthy today Is the earth of a dusty tomorrow! |
#39
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That’s the part I dislike. Religion can be fine. I may not quite agree with some of it's ideas on creation etc i.e. world in seven days, or water into wine, but hey, it hurts nobody. (Unless people insist on teaching that in schools ‘instead’ of science. Ala’ certain American states. As well as – fine. Instead of? Not so much). What I'm not pleased about, is the use of a Religion as a means of opposing things that someone dislikes. If a person really truly, has a problem with Homosexuals, then so long as you're polite about it, fine! I mean, honestly, (and maybe somewhat hypocritically) I'm not overly great with the idea of Trans-Gender people. Might be because I don’t really know any people with those issues, but I understand they still need their rights, because they’ve not done anything wrong. But when a Religions start using words like ‘grave sins’, it somewhat moves peoples opinions for them. In the least, it doesn’t help matters.
But yes I did study the ….(document with the longest name in the world)… ‘Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders’, which you speak of. And yes it was better than hoped. And it’s fine for the Catholic Church to ask that it’s Homosexual Priests must promise sexual abstinence. All priests must be practice celibacy, straight or not. However, such groups like Jehovah Witnesses insist on Homosexual abstinence only. Well that’s about the same as asking a Felmale to dress in male clothes or some such. I did find a great site, written by someone, using clear and simple science to prove certain things, this time being the debate about Creationism. I found it very good. http://members.shaw.ca/amitdeshwar/creationism.html But this whole debate has somewhat move to the one subject. On the very first point, I remember there being a small uproar about Picard's line in 'Who Watches The Watchers'. The 'sending the Mintakans back to the dark ages because of Religion' bit. I don't know. Evidence of Star Trek being Anti-Religion? What about Doctor Who though? It has many, many stories which take Religion and such and turn it into Science or Aliens. See 'The Satan Pit'.
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Fate: Protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise... Fate: Also beats the merry hell out of the Battlestar Galactica. -------------------------------------------------- House Quote of the Day! "I was curious. But since I'm not a cat, that's not dangerous to me." Dr House MD I don't think that metaphor was actually designed to warn cats. Dr Wilson MD (Just) ------------------------------------------------- |
#40
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I think that what Picard was referring to when he said that was religion replacing science, or more precisely, scientific method.
Religion contains many, many things that we can not test for and falsify. For these, philosophy and religion can argue about the great intangibles - is there a Heaven, is there a God, do we have souls? However, things that we can test for should be tested for, not blindly believed. Where scientific research and religious dogma differ, the rational choice is science. The bible doesn't tell us how to make microchips. Conversely, Stephen Hawking doesn't know where you'll go when you die. For some people, this might imply a God of the gaps. However, that is inaccurate; God of the gaps attributes everything Science can't explain yet to God. I propose that we will eventually learn everything important about the physical world, so there will be no more gaps to hide in there. Focus on the spiritual, where Science can not penetrate. Gatac
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Katy: Can I have the skill 'drive car off bridge and have parachute handy'? Justin: It's kind of a limited skill. Greg: Depends on how often you drive off bridges. - d02 Quotes |
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