Regeneration - What the hell were they thinking?

[Gatac]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Hm. I suspect that cloning is something the Collective dabbles in during their "free time". It's the standard approach when you have time and don't want to hunt around for people to assimilate. It should be noted that tactical drones are probably cloned - they profit the most from being created with a genetic advantage. On the other hand, the "thinkers" should be assimilated. Assimilated tactical drones are just about as useful as cloned thinkers - they can be used in a pinch, but the results of the former are quite random and the results of the latter quite underwhelming, especially when one considers that assimilated drones actually bring new knowledge into the hive. Concluding, both make sense and should be considered effective ways of generating Borg. As for actual sexual reproduction, it is probably considered ineffective. Cloned cells could be grown in artificial wombs until they are roughly the equivalent of a regularly gestated baby ready for birth - then they can be placed in a maturation chamber and be grown to full size much faster than natural.

Regarding sex, perhaps Borg find the direct joining of minds a pleasurable experience that transcends primal urges. Or maybe they don't, and live in eternal frustration - well, that's one heck of a motive for hating the universe, don'tcha think ?

Concerning the prevalence of humanoid drones, one might argue that they would require a different user interface (Thank you, Enterprise, for actually acknowledging that!). On the other hand, Borg are linked to their ships, so that might be a moot point. However, merely going by how many non-humanoid sentient species we have seen, it seems a roughly humanoid configuration is a very important factor in archieving spaceflight in the Trek universe. A species that can not, for example, create and use tools, will not archieve any sort of meaningful technology - this leaves a loophole for psychokinetic adepts (Who said you need hands when you can shape metal with your mind?), but generally limits the criteria to a species with complex digits and an opposable thumb. Also, the requirements of a large cranial capacity, a highly effective central nervous system and the ability to communicate in a complex language are quite hard to meet. For example, Species 8472 - very alien by Trek standards - does bear a striking resemblance to the normal humanoid scheme, even if 8472s are tripods. (The same goes for Arex from TAS.) There are just certain requirements that seem to call for a roughly humanoid solution.

Does it have to be mammals? No, probably not. Cardassians, after all, have a very reptilian flair; and Gorn are giant space lizards. Still, an insectoid has multiple problems to overcome; trachea and exoskeletons don't scale up well. An insect with a pseudo-blood circulatory system, a partial endoskeleton and an exoskeleton built on the foundation of a *very* hard alien material, plus some method of insulating their nervous system for greater performance (whether humanoid style or octopus style) *could* work. (And that's probably what Xindi insectoids are.) On the other hand, a horror ant (a scaled up normal insect) can't work; see scaling problem. You may debate to what degree my super-insect can be considered being an insect at all; but these are the requirements.

Concerning assimilating a tiger - for what reason? The animal is not sentient, and does not possess a 'mind' to link with, at least as far as we know. You may gain a remote-controlled tiger, but that's it. I suppose a drone in this situation would rather set it's nanobots to *kill* - attack cells, release a fast-acting poison, whatever. True, we haven't seen them do that, but it would be nonsensical to do to a sentient being - why kill what you can assimilate and get a use out of? On the other hand, a remote-control tiger isn't of much use in most situations; kill him and be done with it.

So, what is my verdict? I don't think we can get much more exotic than 8472 and the insectoid Xindi; as nasty as it sounds, but spaceflight (or failing that, culture) requires a complex array of attributes from a species that only humanoid or closely-related species seem to be able to fulfill. On the other hand, assimilating any of the sentient species shown on Trek? Sure, knock yourselves out. Unless the being is not corporeal or has any inherent nanoprobe-defeating qualities, assimilation should be possible - though perhaps not until a few members of the respective species have been brought in and examined to determine the most effective usage of implants.

So, that's my two slips of Latinum.

Gatac[/colorost_uid0]

[Scooter]

[quoteost_uid0="Gatac"][color=#000000ost_uid0]Concerning assimilating a tiger - for what reason? The animal is not sentient, and does not possess a 'mind' to link with, at least as far as we know.[/colorost_uid0][/quoteost_uid0]
[color=#000000ost_uid0]My point, I guess, was that in the Borg/8472 confrontation, the Borg (I'm thinking in particular of the one Harry found) seemed to be trying, unsuccessfully, to use assimilation as a last-ditch [iost_uid0]defensive weapon[/iost_uid0], and I was rather whimsically exploring the ramifications of that. [/colorost_uid0]

[Sa'ar Chasm]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]Concerning the prevalence of humanoid drones, one might argue that they would require a different user interface[/quoteost_uid0]

Or it's just simpler to hire a human actor, cover him in white paint and plastic prosthetics and stick him in front of the camera. A lot of Trek weirdness is a result of the limitations of 20/21st century film making and dramatic necessity. For example, it's probably bad tactics for two ships to sit statically nose-to-nose and hammer away at each other, but it's easier to film with models and allows both ships to be seen on screen at the same time.[/colorost_uid0]

[Nic Corelli]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]So, a brief Thread Digest:

The third season finale of Enterprise, the crew finds the Xindi homeworld, Archer beams down and...

Chakotay wakes up, comes to the window, and sees the moon. Â Voyager continues airing every Wednesday on UPN,


[quoteost_uid0]A lot of Trek weirdness is a result of the limitations of 20/21st century film making and dramatic necessity[/quoteost_uid0]

Indeed. I recently found out the reason behind the Klingon-Romulan alliance in TOS era. It was too expensive to create a new ship model for the Romulans, because the one from Balance of Terror was lost, and they just used the model for the Klingon Bird of Prey... and voila, Klingon-Romulan alliance, that gave Romulans a fleet of ships and a cloaking device to the Klingons, [/colorost_uid0]

[Gatac]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Of course, we can simply say that real-life issues are the reason, but that's not half the fun, is it?

Gatac[/colorost_uid0]

[Marc]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]The Borg stories, taken as a whole, show another type of lack of continuity that I find very annoying: the Borg's inability to learn from their mistakes when it comes to attacking Earth.

In "Dark Frontier" (if I remember correctly), the Borg Queen says she needs Seven's help to figure out the mystery of how the human race keeps foiling the Borg's plans to assimilate them. Â The answer should be obvious: when they attack Earth, the Borg's tactics make no military sense.

In both "The Best of Both Worlds" and in "First Contact," the Borg send a [iost_uid0]single[/iost_uid0] cube against Earth, and they have it travel for hours (or days) towards Earth using conventional warp propulsion, thus giving plenty of time for Starfleet to spot it and to assemble a fleet to oppose it. Â Both these errors could be forgiven in "The Best of Both Worlds," but by the second time around in "First Contact" the Borg should have learned better.

Both of these tactics ignore Borg capabilities that we've seen in other episodes. Â We've seen that the Borg will sometimes attack a planet [iost_uid0]en masse[/iost_uid0], deploying a fleet of cubes against it. Â Given how much trouble Starfleet had in stopping just a single cube in "The Best of Both Worlds" and in "First Contact," tossing in just an extra cube or two (let alone a fleet of them) could easily have made all the difference.

As for this habit of cruising towards Earth in a leisurely way that lets Starfleet know they are coming, why wouldn't the Borg instead use the subspace conduits we've seen them employ elsewhere? Â If they had appeared out of nowhere, without warning, right on Earth's doorstep, the element of surprise could easily have let them carry the day.

Furthermore, why did the Borg wait so long after "The Best of Both Worlds" to take another crack at Earth, rather than hitting it again right away before Starfleet had had a chance to rebuild? Â Why did they likewise seemingly give up after "First Contact"?

For a species that quickly adapts to the weapons used against them, the Borg have shown an unbelievable obtuseness when it comes to learning from their own mistakes. Â The real-world answer, of course, is that if they had done so, the Borg would have won and the history of the Federation would now be over. Â

Star Trek's own writers have recognized that, when you create an enemy that powerful, re-using them becomes a problem. Â One way to do so is to "domesticate" them so that they are no longer quite so menacing. Â The relentless, unstoppable quality of the Borg was at its strongest and most terrifying in "Q Who" and "The Best of Both Worlds"; afterwards, it became greatly diluted and the Borg were basically reduced to the status of a "manageable" threat.[/colorost_uid0]

[NAHTMMM]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="Marc"]In both "The Best of Both Worlds" and in "First Contact," the Borg send a [iost_uid0]single[/iost_uid0] cube against Earth, and they have it travel for hours (or days) towards Earth using conventional warp propulsion, thus giving plenty of time for Starfleet to spot it and to assemble a fleet to oppose it. Â Both these errors could be forgiven in "The Best of Both Worlds," but by the second time around in "First Contact" the Borg should have learned better.[/quoteost_uid0]
By the second time around, the Borg (as evidenced by the existence of the Queen) had assimilated bureaucracy. And so they're going to adapt on the large scale much, much, much slower now. :smile:

[quoteost_uid0]As for this habit of cruising towards Earth in a leisurely way that lets Starfleet know they are coming, why wouldn't the Borg instead use the subspace conduits we've seen them employ elsewhere? Â If they had appeared out of nowhere, without warning, right on Earth's doorstep, the element of surprise could easily have let them carry the day.[/quoteost_uid0]
[iost_uid0]Might've-beens are irrelevant. Strategies are irrelevant. We are Borg. We have the same mental capacities as the Doomsday Machine from TOS. If we calculate that a tactic falls within an acceptable probability-of-success margin, we carry that tactic out. We do not stop to worry or think of improvements or engage in other silly recursive thought processes that characterize humans and so many other non-Borg species.[/iost_uid0]

Or that's what I think the "problem" is, anyway.

[quoteost_uid0]Furthermore, why did the Borg wait so long after "The Best of Both Worlds" to take another crack at Earth, rather than hitting it again right away before Starfleet had had a chance to rebuild? Â Why did they likewise seemingly give up after "First Contact"?[/quoteost_uid0]
[iost_uid0]Look, we've still got thousands of planets to assimilate, okay? You're way over in your part of the galaxy, we're over here, and let's be honest, you aren't NEAR as special as you think you are. You're just a bunch of species who happen to number slightly above average among organizations. We could crush you tomorrow, just as soon as Cube 3728 comes back from the cleaners, but why should we? Why should we bother to cross all that space just to wipe you out when we could crush five other organizations for the same amounts of time and energy? We'll get you eventually. No need to be so impatient.[/iost_uid0]


[/colorost_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]In both "The Best of Both Worlds" and in "First Contact," the Borg send a single cube against Earth,[/quoteost_uid0]
In "First Contact" they had thought of a different tactic. The sphere that came out of the cube had time travel capabilities, and the Enterprise could hitch-hike, but maybe a cube would have been too big. Now you could ask why they hadn't built the time travel technology in a cube. Well...

[quoteost_uid0]why wouldn't the Borg instead use the subspace conduits we've seen them employ elsewhere?[/quoteost_uid0]
Didn't they just get finished on Voyager? And then they got destroyed.[/colorost_uid0]

[Scooter]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]My theory is that attacking Earth always falls to the Borg cube that draws short straw and gets Alpha Quadrant duty. It's the Borg equivalent of "F Troop."

Seriously though, Marc's right. Since the Borg Queen shows that the Borg retain knowledge of past events despite detruction of their kamikaze cubes, why don't they try something different, anyway?

I hate to keep bringing up "Doctor Who," but they faced a similar problem when the Doctor incurred the enmity of a immensely powerful godlike being called the Black Guardian. The BG was clearly capable of squashing the Doctor like a bug, which quickly painted the writers into a corner. So on the BG's next appearance, he bribes an alien kid (who's posing as a British schoolboy) to become the Doctor's companion and try to kill him. When the kid asks him why he doesn't just kill the Doctor himself, the BG says, "I must not be seen to be involved in this." Oh, really?

You know, I know that there were the Nitpicker's Guides, but they focused on individual episodes. It would be fun to have a Discontuity Guide, which details all the ways that phenomena like the Borg changed, or, in this case, failed to change, as they recurred over the years.[/colorost_uid0]

[Scooter]

[quoteost_uid0="catalina_marina"][color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0]why wouldn't the Borg instead use the subspace conduits we've seen them employ elsewhere?[/quoteost_uid0]
Didn't they just get finished on Voyager? And then they got destroyed.[/colorost_uid0][/quoteost_uid0]
[color=#000000ost_uid0]I think they must have had the conduits when they first came to the Alpha Quadrant. The distances are just to vast to cover even with "transwarp" drives.

Transwarp--a name forever linked in my mind with the moustachioed face of James B. Sikking. Alas.[/colorost_uid0]

[catalina_marina]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]As I stated before, Voyager would have taken 75 years. How long do you think the Borg existed before they got to the Alpha Quadrant?[/colorost_uid0]

[mudshark]

[quoteost_uid0="NAHTMMM"][color=#000000ost_uid0][iost_uid0]Look, we've still got thousands of planets to assimilate, okay? You're way over in your part of the galaxy, we're over here, and let's be honest, you aren't NEAR as special as you think you are. You're just a bunch of species who happen to number slightly above average among organizations. We could crush you tomorrow, just as soon as Cube 3728 comes back from the cleaners, but why should we? Why should we bother to cross all that space just to wipe you out when we could crush five other organizations for the same amounts of time and energy? We'll get you eventually. No need to be so impatient.[/iost_uid0][/colorost_uid0][/quoteost_uid0]
[color=#000000ost_uid0]Here we are; hive mind the size of a quadrant ... [/ten billion voices of Marvin]

[quoteost_uid0="Scooter"]My theory is that attacking Earth always falls to the Borg cube that draws short straw and gets Alpha Quadrant duty. It's the Borg equivalent of "F Troop." [/quoteost_uid0]
[/colorost_uid0]

[Scooter]

[quoteost_uid0="mudshark"][color=#000000ost_uid0]Here we are; hive mind the size of a quadrant ... [/ten billion voices of Marvin][/colorost_uid0][/quoteost_uid0]
[color=#000000ost_uid0]:lol:[/colorost_uid0]

[PointyHairedJedi]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Actually, if the Borg [iost_uid0]had[/iost_uid0] assimilated Archer, it would explain why they are always beaten so easily...[/colorost_uid0]

[Nic Corelli]

[color=#000000ost_uid0][quoteost_uid0="NAHTMMM"][iost_uid0]Look, we've still got thousands of planets to assimilate, okay? You're way over in your part of the galaxy, we're over here, and let's be honest, you aren't NEAR as special as you think you are. You're just a bunch of species who happen to number slightly above average among organizations. We could crush you tomorrow, just as soon as Cube 3728 comes back from the cleaners, but why should we? Why should we bother to cross all that space just to wipe you out when we could crush five other organizations for the same amounts of time and energy? We'll get you eventually. No need to be so impatient.[/iost_uid0][/quoteost_uid0]


The Collective has spoken!


(hilarious, NAH) [/colorost_uid0]

[taya17]

[color=#000000ost_uid0]Um... yeah.


Whatever they said.

::is so out of the Trek fandom loop. GAH!::[/colorost_uid0]