BattleStar-eyed wonder

[Chancellor Valium]

I think the point is that its depressing. Science fiction tends to work best with a depressing view of the future...Otherwise you get what I like to call the TOS-effect - everyone smiles and They All Live Happily Ever After at the end of the episode and its back to the status quo...

On the other hand, it's not quite got the dull depressingness of say, Blake's 7. I mean, not many programmes have managed to see like Marvin wrote them and then kill off almost the entire cast in the final episode...Its like King Lear, only not quite so well written...

UFO is also quite depressing. And the new Captain Scarlet really isn't as good as the original...

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Chancellor Valium

I think the point is that its depressing. Science fiction tends to work best with a depressing view of the future...

This line of thinking is so depressing, I don't know where to begin.

[Chancellor Valium]

Originally Posted by Derek

This line of thinking is so depressing, I don't know where to begin.

Then begin at the beginning and end at the ending!

[evay]

Zeke, do you find it upsetting that people enjoy a "dark" scifi show, or are you cranked about people who praise it blindly and won't admit to any faults? I enjoy the show, but it's no Trek, and neither is it the Second Coming. RDMoore and Co screw up just as much as anyone else. I'm curious what your objections are.

[Zeke]

Oh, I have no problem at all with dark shows. Some of my favourite Trek episodes are bleak ones like "In the Pale Moonlight" and "Mortal Coil," and I'm enjoying the hell out of the new Doctor Who series. Gene Roddenberry's vision is what separates Trek from most sf, but that doesn't automatically make it better than less optimistic concepts.

What bothers me about BSG is that it seems almost grown out of the basher mentality. "Let's not be Trek" is the closest thing it has to a guiding philosophy. Bashers loved B5 and Farscape too, but those shows didn't love them back the way BSG does. Consequently, the show can get away with things Trek couldn't. Picture for a moment a Trek series as glutted with sex as BSG is. Can there be any doubt that it would be reviled as pandering to the lowest common denominator? But BSG gets to be "Sci-Fi Sexuality Dealt With." I guess all it takes to deal with sexuality is show everybody screwing and never look at the consequences; it's not like sex means anything, after all.

And what really gets to me is that everyone is buying it. Not just the bashers, everyone. BSG is all over the net, nigh-inescapable. And it gets slack no other sf show gets. The complaints bashers had about VOY and ENT pale before the ones they should have about BSG but don't. Moore is completely flying by the seat of his pants. The Cylons can do whatever's necessary for the plot because they're mysterious. Maybe "they have a plan," but no one has any idea what it is. And why should they? Their fans don't care.

Did you know that Kira used to be every bit the Trek defender I am? We felt just the same way about the basher mentality... and then, little by little, I watched it eat her. In the end she'd become a dyed-in-the-wool TWOP-type fan, agreeing with the mob, saying stuff like "squee," and ending sentences? Like this. By the time BSG came out, it fit her like a glove. So yeah, I have something of a personal investment here -- maybe too much. But I will do anything I can to fight the basher mentality. And I'll watch BSG, sometimes enjoy it, but I'll never forget what it stands for.

[PointyHairedJedi]

[evay]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Picture for a moment a Trek series as glutted with sex as BSG is. Can there be any doubt that it would be reviled as pandering to the lowest common denominator?

Isn't that one of the common complaints about ENT, as your own link proved? It certainly pissed me off that they made the ship's Vulcan into the Show's Babe.

I guess all it takes to deal with sexuality is show everybody screwing and never look at the consequences; it's not like sex means anything, after all.

::scratches head:: Okay, who's had sex on BSG? and what happened afterwards?


Chief and Boomer: in the context of a loving relationship. She was outed as a Cylon agent. She died.

Helo and Sharon: sort of in the context of a loving relationship. She's pregnant. Helo takes responsibility. Kid is born and must be coped with.

Kara and Lee, sort of: Aborted drunken tryst between friends.

Kara and her underwear model: eventually in the context of a relationship, as they get married.

Lee and Dee: eventually in the context of a loving relationship.

Chief and Cally: married, or at least partnered, and she's pregnant.

The Tighs: married. Very twisted relationship. Ellen sleeps around, and is one of the show's secondary villains.

Dee and Billy: dating.

Baltar: Complete and utter tramp, who will sleep with humans, Cylons, battered women, and chip-generated fantasies. Also the show's villain, a total scumbag and vile coward.

Six/Gina: Manipulating Cylons. Show's villains.


Did I miss anyone? As I'm seeing it, all the positive sex is more or less in healthy relationships between adults, and all the people who are running around screwing anyone are -- gasp! -- the bad guys, whom the show reviles. Kara is not celebrated for her drunken grope of Lee.

You know what I don't see? The endless goddamn soap opera they made of Trip and T'Pol. There's no will they/won't they, no coy withdrawals, no genital-teasing. The Siren is a Siren, and acts like one. The officers are competent and dress appropriately for their duties.

Moore is completely flying by the seat of his pants. The Cylons can do whatever's necessary for the plot because they're mysterious. Maybe "they have a plan," but no one has any idea what it is. And why should they? Their fans don't care.

have you listened to the three-part writers' meeting podcasts? Maybe the writers don't know, but they are spending a lot of time thinking about it. They're not just churning ahead blindly. They acknowledge the corners they could paint themselves into. I don't mind that Moore doesn't have his plan worked out yet. The writers don't have a frakking clue what's going on on "Lost" either, and that show regularly makes the Top 10. (not that I watch it -- just making the analogy.)


I cheerfully acknowledge BSG's faults. Moore screws up his own continuity, and made an ENORMOUS error in having Roslin ban abortion. And it's NOT Trek; it doesn't celebrate the best we could be and hold it up as a goal. (and you cannot accuse me of not supporting Trek in general or ENT specifically, considering all the work I did on my support page over S3 and S4.) But I also recognize good writing when I see it.

[Burt]

Originally Posted by evay

The writers don't have a frakking clue what's going on on "Lost" either, and that show regularly makes the Top 10. (not that I watch it -- just making the analogy.)

Slightly changing the subject, even though I know it's not what you meant. But, lordy has anyone watched Lost? I mean I can watch most TV shows. Really. Anyone that can sit down and watch 'The Web of Fear' (Doctor Who 1st Doctor), enjoy it AND, not find people walking around in huge bee suits silly - well lets just say that no matter how 'bad' Enterprise, Voyager, BSG and all other sci-fi shows get they'll never be at that level.
But Lost? Yes, it has about a zillion great ideas.
The monster, random animals that shouldn't be there, The hidden bases, The countdown thingy, The others, The numbers, The chance meetings, The boy, The French women, The illness and everything else.
And what happens..?
Zero.
No point is ever explained. No-one ever seems to react how any normal person would to these events. No plots are uncovered. I watch an episode and something big happens at the end of it, and you think 'Wow! Now that will be explained next episode! They wouldn't just forget about that, would they!?' But they do. It would be like Buffy finding Dark Willow killing Warren. And then the next episode being about something totally different. I DON'T CARE ABOUT SUN'S CABBAGE PATCH! I just wanna know about the numbers!
I've watched the first series. And I've just finished watching the second. I was so bored. The thing that keeps me going on Buffy, Angel, 24 (And Series 3 Of Enterprise) was the plot. Finding small bits of info thoughout, building up the picture, understanding more and more as you go along. I know some stuff needs to be kept hidden till the end, but with Lost it feels like it's everything!
The problem with Lost is it's based around 'THE SECRET-tm'. That one big idea. No-one knows what it is -either they've all been taken by aliens, or there're in purgatory- whatever. The thing is, the writers can't tell us what it is. Cos then the mystery will be gone, So I'm guessing I'll have to wait till the very end to find out.
There was a big cliff-hanger at the end of series two. One of them 'This will change everything bits'. But knowing this show, everyone will have forgot about it by next series.