Wow, I love doing this. And I don't know why. Ah, well. You only live once...
1) Forcing of beliefs: I agree about religion, but not legal or for a large portion of morality. Religious beliefs should not be forced upon the populace. However, some other beliefs, such as the inalienable rights to life, liberty, ownership of property, and the pursuit as happiness, must be preserved. Rather than try to back that up with an actual argument, I'm going to treat that as a premise. If someone wants to argue those, then we're into first principles of philosophy, and that would last for years.
2) Contraception: I'm Catholic. This means that our faith is not based solely on Scripture, but what God has revealed through Divine Revelation to His Church. We believe (and, I should say, are right) that, in a nutshell, that sexuality is meant as an act of complete self-gift, and that contraceptives prevent that self-gift. I've written a few pages on this, but, frankly, it doesn't much matter to this political argument, and I see no reason to go to a place from which we can never really return. If you're really curious, here's a link to another forum where we had a dedicated topic for this, where I appear as TheDM: . My feeling is that most people here would get bored in about 10 seconds. I would have.
3) Now, why am I not logged in? Dang it, my last post got posted as a guest. Thanks, whoever fixed that.
4) Unfortunately, IJD, due to the construction of the Allan Guttmacher tablemaker, a direct link is not possible. However, you can toy around however you like from here: .
5) IJD, you have some good points about sex ed. I see no reason not to massively improve our system. However, the high teen birth rate is no reason not to make 99% of abortions illegal. I see your argument as similar to what I term the "Prudential" argument for keeping slavery legal: "We can just educate people all how black people are human, and the slavery rate will go down. Also, imagine how horrific slavery would be if it were a black market operation." The argument was probably right, too. But it wouldn't change the horrible injustice done to the few remaining slaves, nor was slavery much better when operated legally. Your fifth-to-last sentence reminds me of one of my mother's favorite sayings on seeing the bumper sticker, "Don't like abortion? Don't have one." She always growls, "Don't like wife beating? Don't beat yours."
6) Now I'm reading your next post, IJD, while I'm on the topic of you, which you seem to have posted while I've been typing. Curses. Yes, all teens should be required to carry their children (I find it intriguing) that you use that word) to term. I don't think that aborting a child is any more difficult of a choice to make than whether or not to give him up for adoption. I suppose, with abortion, you know exactly where your baby is: in the grave. Except that fetuses don't get graves.
7) As page 6 of this topic has progressed, I have seen the argument slowly reach its furthest possible point without changing into something completely new. This is the point which has turned Blue against Red, Coasts against Heartland, Europe against America, and Brother against Brother. Most of the time, morality and the maintenance of order go hand-in-hand, and the law follows. However, on abortion, and, as America discorvered last week, a host of other issues have found the ultimate mediums. These issues are not even gray: to those who believe that morality is the foundation of law, it is a black-and-white issue. To those who believe law is about order, it is a white-and-black issue. Those first principles I stated at the beginning of this post? We've now found grounds on which some of them can no longer be said to be given.
I'm not talking about gay marriage, mind you. That is a whole different monkey. The arguments against it are sound, but, unfortunately, the vast majority of those who passed the 11 state constitutional amendments last week have no idea what they are, instead basing their vote on strictly religious grounds.
What I suppose it really comes down to is this: Is there a right and a wrong? Or is life merely a series of power relationships, with each individual trying to get the upper hand? Murder, I fear, is only the first issue. There will soon be challenges like this on every front, and the world (now I'm just getting cynical) will be plunged into war before anyone realizes what has happened to society.
Maybe I've just degenerated into ranting and fear-mongering. On the other hand, the way in which this debate seems to be stalled only assures me that I am onto something.
Gatac: Fascinatingly complex topic, hm?
Valium: Horrendously so...
Commence the rebuttals!
--Wowbagger
Insulting this Forum in Alphabetical Order: Admiral Sab, you are a nitwit, likely unable to tie your own shoe. If a football were to be thrown at you, you would likely trip over your laces.
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