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-   -   ENT 4x22: "These Are the Voyages" (http://www.fiveminute.net/forums/showthread.php?t=734)

Zeke 05-16-2005 08:28 PM

ENT 4x22: "These Are the Voyages"
 
This isn't going to make me popular, but... I loved it. And I think it's an episode that's easy to dismiss without giving it serious thought. Look at it closely, and there's real depth here. I'm working on an article which will explain exactly what I mean.

For those who don't know, this finale, like B5's, was written the previous year in case of cancellation then. In both cases, that led to hiccups -- "Sleeping in Light" acted like the wounds between Sheridan and Garibaldi were still fresh, and "These Are the Voyages" has a strange disconnect with the rest of late S4 when it comes to the T'Pol/Trip relationship. We left them in a real relationship in "Terra Prime," and now we learn that it petered out right afterwards. That was my least favourite part of the episode.

I don't want to steal material from myself, but I will tell you one of the points of my defense: Riker and Troi as people are irrelevant to the story. TATV could -- and maybe should -- have featured Starfleet officers from the 26th or 30th century that we've never met before. The fact that it was Riker and Troi allowed some subtle nods (Riker cooking; Riker asking T'Pol if she ever missed Trip, clearly seeing a parallel with himself and Troi), but thematically, they don't matter. What matters is the Enterprise crew being seen in historical perspective. And I'll say no more for now.

Gatac 05-16-2005 09:46 PM

Eh. They should've gone with the Titan idea. Frakes looks noteably older now, so it's kind of a strange disconnect to see him in a TNG uniform.

Why not show us Archer's speech?

The lamest part must be Trip's death. That was just handled awfully and contrived as heck, as if they needed to do SOMETHING. As I said in the other thread: Keep the baby and send TNT off as couple. May smack of Voyager, true, but atleast there'd be *some* character development.

The whole thing felt strangely unaffecting. I was grinning from cheek to cheek when Voyager deployed the ablative armor, but TATV just didn't feel so monumental. They even managed to suck the life out of what could be the most pivotal scene in Trek history (Archer's Federation speech) by not really showing any of it.

I'm not sure if I can sustain the same level of venom towards B&B as others do, but let me put it this way: If they do a new series, I want Coto. He's not perfect, but that was an awesome first Trek season for him as showrunner. Too bad they killed it, but hey. I just hope he's still there when Paramount gets off their asses and does the next Trek series...

Gatac

evay 05-16-2005 10:04 PM

:lol: Zeke, if that's how you feel, you should probably skip my site this week, despite that I went out of my way to offer up several paragraphs in reflection of our discussions on fairness. I went after this one with filleting knives. And I'll say no more here. :)

Draknek 05-16-2005 10:04 PM

At parts, I had to restrain myself from shouting at the screen, "WHY?".

There really wasn't any point to it. There was no need to make it a holodeck simulation. There was no need to kill Trip. Everything involving Shran felt unnecessary.

I agree with Gatac for the most part, for this episode and the last. Having Trip and T'Pol together, raising a child, would have been satisfying. This episode just felt annoying.

Derek 05-16-2005 10:21 PM

I really haven't been able to make up my mind about this episode. What I'd really like to do is to read an extremely positive review of the episode and an extremely negative one. I think seeing both sets the points together would help me recognize my own attitude toward the episode.

Wowbagger 05-16-2005 10:54 PM

Well, to give you an idea of how I liked it, I'm getting ready to start up, for TU's Fan Fiction section, the Official "TATV..." Decanonization Contest, offering a prize to the person who writes the coolest story that effectively wipes out TATV.

I'm not even going to discuss the utterly pointless, wandering, redundant, unnecessary, and repetitive first half-hour. Think that sentence was unneceessarily long? Not nearly as long as those 30 min. Shran? Child? Random walking? Poor writing?

I've got nothing against the Riker and Troi thing, but the tie-in was weak at best.

And what in the frelling DSOKPACH were those blatches thinking with Trip's pointless, unnecessary, ignonimous, redundant, even repetitive death?! We watched Major Hayes last year, B&B! We don't need the SAME BLOODY SCENE a SECOND TIME! Was there a dramatic point? Was the writing clever? No! Trip died basically just like Phlox came close to dying in "The Catwalk!" Ooo! Evil alien pirates the world will forget about in a week! Why does Bermaga insist on killing off characters for no reason? I mean, we've got the same thing going on here as with Data in Nemesis! The story would have been dramatically satisfied without the death, which added nothing to poignancy and simply made us all walk away with a bad taste in our mouths!

Too many exclamation points in this post. Oh, well. I'm ranting, I know it, and I'm proud of it.

Don't get me wrong. I condemned the Wooden Man and supported Bermaga for years. It wasn't until... oh... must have been "Precious Cargo..." no, it was the Trellium-D arc that I realized they really weren't giving us anything worth watching. And yet I did, because, somehow, the characters rose above the unadulterated crap for scripts they were getting. You know what? There is no one on the Enterprise cast who is more right about that show than Jolene Blalock. What makes her better than Voyager's Pinnochio is the fact that she kept acting--and acting well--after the producers destroyed her role. What I'm trying to say is that, when Bermaga tried to step in on Manny Coto's season (and I am utterly disbelieving Berman's recent, pathetic defense on TrekToday), they should have not only been denied, but possibly fired, and, if they refused to leave, shot through the lungs. Braga, anyhow. Berman has reigned during some of Trek's greatest times. Braga, so far as I can tell, was around for Trek's major turning point: First Contact. Since then he has led the franchise into the ratings doldrums and now cancellation.

But I digress.

The last five minutes of TATV were not bad. It were the only place in which Riker and Troi should have appeared. That spot, in fact, worked great with regards to them. Seeing Manny Coto behind Reed was nice. Reed, Hoshi, and Travis interacted... nicely. Mediocrely [sic]. The Ultimate A/T scene was weaker than it could have been, because Enterprise's Big Three (remember back at the beginning of the series when Bermaga promised a TOS-esque relationship?) was minus one of its number. Without Trip facilitating, A/T scenes haven't really worked for years.

And, of course, we didn't get to see the speech... unless, of course, you choose to believe that the "Space. The Final Frontier." monolouge was in fact the text from Archer's speech.

On that subject, the final montage was the one single moment of the episode that I truly loved, and it deserved to be the final moments of an 18 year era.

When Star Trek returns, I hope that we of Trekdom will lead a revolt against the Bermaga regime. Anybody but Braga or J. Michael Stravinski! Berman may live, but only if he submits to Our Will. For the motherland!

Opium 05-17-2005 03:16 AM

Belch. Yeck. Yucky.

*brushes teeth*

Nope, still got a bad taste in my mouth...

What the ? (I almost used multiple ?'s)

Bring up the Peguses? I mean, come on! Really! Having teh last ep be a holodeck program? Having Troi and Riker re-film the Pegesus ep like nothing has happened, when they are, what, 12 years older, and we've seen how that series ends? ARG.

This wasn't as bad as the Ally McBeal ending, which was not understandable in the least. In Enterprise, I can see what they were doing. I can understand why they wanted to close the series in this way.

But I also understand it sucked! It did feel totally disconnected from the final season, and in a way I am glad they made it a holodeck program instead of actually what happened.

I'm just going to assume that the holodeck program was the sanitzed version of what happened, that Trip didn't die, he was just swept under the rug in a fit of revisionist history, as he actually gave up the Andorians to the envading aliens and they both ended up dead, but Starfleet didn't want its first flagship ship to have a senior officer be court-marshaled, so they changed the offical story. And, they let T'Pol and Trip move away and live together and have 3 cute little kids.

Yech.

Celeste 05-17-2005 03:29 AM

Are couples who are brought together and hinted at throught the whole series of Star Trek NOT ALLOWED TO BE TOGETHER???? Arrgh! Why did they break up those two! The last episode saw them closer together than *ever* before! And suddenly Trip doesn't even notice T'pol, and T'pol is a born again Vulcan who really doesn't act the part. Although those two actors played what they were given beautifuly, it didn't fit the whole series.

I still don't get the point of Killing Trip. It felt like the writers wanted to kill him off, so they tried to find a way to do it. And didn't do it very well.

I feel there was way too much TNG, and not enough ENT. This was an ENT finale. Not a TNG episode. However, even though I overall hated this episode, the little details thrown in here and there made me aww and tear up a bit.

T'pol, for instance, smelling Trip's clothes when she at first couldn't stand the smell of humans. And Archers speach actualy being the main scrawl for all the other Star Trek shows. Nice touches, but they don't make up for a poor end.

Sa'ar Chasm 05-17-2005 04:46 AM

Quote:

Are couples who are brought together and hinted at throught the whole series of Star Trek NOT ALLOWED TO BE TOGETHER?
This disturbing habit of turning every series into a teen melodrama with couples pairing and angsting is one of the reasons I've been turned off by the more recent incarnations of Trek. The last season of DS9 was like a soap opera in some respects.

I actually did intend to watch the finale (I saw the premiere, so I figured I may as well see the end of it. Same reason I watched Endgame). Unfortunately, I was otherwise engaged on Friday night, and on Sunday my room mate had a friend over and they watched two hours of Fox. Even worse, Space doesn't timeshift, so I didn't have another three chances to see it on stations further west. $118 a month for cable, and the one time I want to actually use it, it fails me. Bah. 300+ channels, and I watch two of them.

But I digress. Hopefully I can catch it in reruns.

Ginga 05-17-2005 05:42 AM

Awful.

Awful awful awful.

They call that a send-off for Trek? I honestly can't see how people can like that... that thing they called an episode. I really don't.

I'm going to say a lot of things I said in my mega-LJ rant.

Riker angsted. Troi gave spoilers (hasn't that woman heard of an LJ cut!?). Trip DIED. The crew got crappy seats for the speech we didn't even get to hear. T'pol angsted. The Trek timeline is now shot to hell. The end didn't even lead to the founding of the Federation. The episode was rushed, stereotypical, and contrived. Trip DIED. Trip DIED. Trip DIED LAMELY.

I gave Enterprise many many chances. Many. And now I am finished giving it chances. The only episode that ever kept my attention was Singularity. I wonder how it would fare with me if I watched it today.

Ugh. I just... can't believe they screwed over the ENT crew just so we could watch angst from Troi and Riker.

They also lied in TV Guide. They said Seņor Frakes was looking better. WRONG, he was still a bit chunky. Oh, shades of the Nemesis sex scene! Save me!

I wanted to hit my TV with a hammer after I watched that thing, and then hit myself with the same hammer. So many things were wrong with it I could barely stand it.

Needless to say, I'm quite excited to see what Richard Whettestone has to say about this [strike]steaming pile of crap[/strike] episode.

TPTB... I hate thee!

Opium 05-17-2005 09:01 AM

I'm still saying that in fact the Holodeck program was a sanitized version of reality which Starfleet created to supress the truth, in which Trip doesn't die but in fact hands over the annoying blue folk. Because, really, it's the only I can't call it worse than the Ally McBeal finale, and THAT was bad.

It's like, by having it be a memior as seen through a program, rather than having it like a regular objective episode, they left it open for interpretation. Or at least I'm hoping they were that smart...but I wouldn't bet on it...

Terra Prime part 2 was a really good finale, so why don't we all just pretend that was the *real* ending? :twisted:

And I didn't see any problem with 'Senor Frakes'. He's middle aged and built like it, nothin wrong with that. :!:

Michiel 05-17-2005 09:40 AM

Well, I'm not going to rant. There's enough of that already in this thread. Let me just say I'm dissapointed for lots of reasons pointed out here. I have some other things to say:

- They always use Riker and Troi. I don't like them much. They could have used Barcley. Or Data. Or something. That would have been better.
- Even though it would probably not have been possible for the holodeck to know about this, I'd have enjoyed seeing young Archer and Daniels watching down on the scene from above in the end of the episode.
- I did like chef being Riker, though. :) Those evil, evil writers. Now we'll never know who those legs really belonged to.

MaverickZer0 05-18-2005 11:45 PM

...
.....
.......

I have several, very complainy opinions about this episode.

One: This is Enterprise. Why they felt the need to put TNG Characters in it is beyond me.

Two: Trip died. This is something I cannot stand. I'll enter the contest to get rid of that part. How about, I don't know, Trip joined Section 31 and had everyone believe he died? Heh. I've already put him in with so many of my stories it's second nature.

Three: Killing off T/T. Not quickly, not properly, just at the end of the previous episode it's 'awwwww', then *BAM!* it's gone. I wasn't totally in support of this pairing, despite what I may have said earlier, but it was nice. It was okay. It wasn't Reed/Tucker, but it worked. And then it very suddenly didn't.

Four: Where the heck did the Shran stuff come from? What did they do, call up Jeffrey Combs and ask him if he wanted a meaningless part in the finale? I realize they wanted to promote that Shran and that albino girl had a relationship, but they could have just mentioned it, met them before the conference, gotten a message or something.

Five: I now officially hate Troi. Even though I already figured it would be Trip to die (call it a hunch or knowing TPTB's lack of writing talent), I still didn't like her to confirm it half an hour before it happened.

Six: Where in the seven galaxies did those aliens come from? How did they catch up? Enterprise was doing at least Warp Four, and Shran said the enemies only had Warp Two, if that. It felt like they were just insulting Trip. Meaningless, very.


I'm just going to go with the whole 'holodeck program was a coverup' theory. It makes me much less mad to think that Starfleet has its KGB elements outside Section 31 (which I already did) than that this is really how their mission ended.

P.S. Was it just me, or was that Rigel Ten scene filmed on the exact same set as the one in Broken Bow?

Opium 05-19-2005 01:48 AM

Quote:

I'm just going to go with the whole 'holodeck program was a coverup' theory. It makes me much less mad to think that Starfleet has its KGB elements outside Section 31 (which I already did) than that this is really how their mission ended.
Yay! Another convert! :D

Zeke 05-19-2005 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evay
:lol: Zeke, if that's how you feel, you should probably skip my site this week

Not at all, evay -- I read your whole review and I recommend that everybody in this thread do the same. I think you made some very good points. I have thoughts on quite a few of them, which I'll send by email when I get a minute.

I'm glad you took my liking TATV in good humour. I was genuinely worried about getting stabbed in the face. Heck, my own gut feeling is to stab me in the face. B&B fan or not, I was not expecting to like this one a bit.

Kira, IJD, Marc? You guys around? I'm very interested in hearing what you thought.

evay 05-19-2005 02:16 PM

Thank you, Zeke, that's very generous of you. I made the effort to note what I liked as well as what I didn't, and why, and to be as calm as I could rather than rant.

As far as your enjoyment of TATV -- hey, to each one's own. Just because we disagree doesn't make either of us wrong. IDIC and all that. I'll save face-stabbing for stuff which really matters (like if you neglect to back up the site regularly and the drive gets wiped).

Kira 05-19-2005 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke
Kira, IJD, Marc? You guys around? I'm very interested in hearing what you thought.

I, uh, sort of stopped watching Enterprise a while back. *cough* It was either that or end up throwing something through my T.V. screen. I did download TATV out of curiosity more than anything, but I haven't had time or motivation to watch it yet. From the capitalization in the blurb for Keckler's recap and what I've heard, I'm not particularly optimistic.

Zeke 05-19-2005 09:26 PM

I always knew you would be the first to BETRAY US.

(ahem) By which I mean, that's too bad. So, when did you stop watching? On second thought, it doesn't matter when -- you've still missed some great episodes. I love Keckler, but she's not the best gauge of episode quality for people like us.

Though maybe she is for the person you've BECOME. BETRAYER.

(ahem)

Sa'ar Chasm 05-19-2005 09:39 PM

Quote:

I always knew you would be the first to BETRAY US.
Hey, I jumped ship after the second episode (figured I'd leave early and avoid the rush). Of course, that was before I found 5MV, so I don't know if it's possible to betray people I've never met.

Kira 05-19-2005 10:39 PM

Quote:

By which I mean, that's too bad. So, when did you stop watching?
During one of the hiatuses, I think. I tried to tune in to one of the mirror episodes, but Bakula is like nails on a chalkboard for me. Just... no.

Quote:

On second thought, it doesn't matter when -- you've still missed some great episodes. I love Keckler, but she's not the best gauge of episode quality for people like us.
Actually... yeah, she's a pretty good gauge for me, as is most of TWoP. It's not a coincidence that my two favorite shows are ranked 1 and 2 by reader grading and 1 and 5 by recappers (only because Strega took too long to come around to the Battlestar Galactica love) and the third, while not recapped, is pretty much generally revered. I've read Keckler's recap of TATV; she's harsh, but a lot of her beefs about the episode are spot on.

Nan 05-20-2005 12:47 AM

I enjoy her fits of apoplectic rage. Good times! :D

I didn't watch Enterprise for a long time, I started catching episodes again this season. There was definite potential, despite the brutal fan alienation, hideous promotional campaign, and general other mishandling by UPN. UGH! UPN must die. I have a nagging suspicion they may yet find a way to kill Veronica Mars.

persianmouse 05-20-2005 01:04 AM

Really? I hated it. Hated it with a passion before unbeknowenst to man. Hated it with the heat of a million suns, the really hot ones. Hated it like Kevin Eubanks hates Jay Leno. Several times during the episode, blood shot out of my nose and I passed out, just from the sheer power of it's suck. It made 'Threshold' look good. My new kitten was sitting with me, while I watched it, and watching it killed her. Killed her, killed her dead.

TaTV kills kittens. Kills them dead. :(

Kira 05-20-2005 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nan
UPN must die. I have a nagging suspicion they may yet find a way to kill Veronica Mars.

How about putting it up against Lost next season? 'Cause that's what they're doing.

persianmouse 05-20-2005 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kira
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nan
UPN must die. I have a nagging suspicion they may yet find a way to kill Veronica Mars.

How about putting it up against Lost next season? 'Cause that's what they're doing.

And It'll be up against 'The West Wing' as well.

They're also moving WWE to the friday night death slot.

Ah! Smell the odor of a rotting network.

Opium 05-20-2005 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kira
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nan
UPN must die. I have a nagging suspicion they may yet find a way to kill Veronica Mars.

How about putting it up against Lost next season? 'Cause that's what they're doing.

Well, at least UPN still has America's Next Top Model. Not that I watch it or anything. Nope, it's not a guilty pleasure to watch to see what happens in showbiz, to see others suffering at mean comments. Nope, not at all. I mean, it's not like I'm in theatre and enjoy hearing how cute-thoat even "nice" judges like Tyra are. Nope, not at all.

Kira 05-20-2005 04:36 AM

Well, West Wing is being butchered by John Wells (ptooie!) and is moving to Sundays, and the plus side is that VM will have ANTM as a lead-in. And it's been pointed out by the brains of the TWoP forum that VM doesn't need to hold a candle to Lost, just kick the WB's ass. Taking it away from its main demo competition, One Tree Hill, is probably a good thing, not to mention getting it away from Scrubs, The Amazing Race, and House.

And hey, it could be worse: they could have given it the Friday Slot of Doom as they did for Enterprise.

Standback 05-20-2005 09:21 AM

I thought of the 5MV forums when I saw this comic... all those of you unfamiliar with "It's Walky!" and other David Willis webcomics, all you need to know is that the guy in the first panel is known for hating everybody and being a sadist.

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20050520.html

admiral sab 05-20-2005 06:37 PM

ok so I'm back from being computerless for a month and I have to talk about this episode.

I read the spoilers when they first came out about this eppy and I was OUTRAGED! Yes I used all caps. I couldn't believe they'd kill off Trip. Just couldn't believe it. Then I heard that this was really a recycled script from the year before. The news just got worse. TnT were broken up! Yikes! And of course the fact that two TNG actors got most of the storyline of an ENT finale. That made me angry. Because this is Enterprise's finale. Their night to shine and it's taken over by Riker and Troi? I love TNG don't get me wrong, but the Pegasus episode? Are B&B serious? That episode barely registers in my memory and that's the episode? Now when DS9 did Trials and Tribbleations that was a great eppie. They went into an old TOS episode that we all recognize and love. It was great, but it wasn't their finale. I read in a TV Guide article that Marina Sirtis said "they don't have a great last scene like we did. We had that poker scene where we all said goodbye. That was a real farewell." See even the guest actress knew that this episode wasn't the best way to end the series. I'm not a B&B basher because they did a great job, but Coto did an awesome job this season and I've loved every episode he's written. Of course it helps that I'm a T/Ter and he saved that ship for all us TnTers! ;) But the ending just kills TnT and for no reason. This whole episode is maddening. But Terra Prime should have been the finale. That's where most of the character development was happening. Travis was even thinking about moving on. The end of Terra Prime was so pure and everything that Trek is about. Everything Enterprise is about. Not just the Trip and T'Pol stuff, but it really showed how far they'd come. In the first episode Trip hated Vulcans and T'Pol wouldn't shake Trip's hand or even call him Trip. In Demons/Terra Prime she only calls him Trip and they have this baby together. Then in that last scene she's in her Vulcan robes, like the way they first met. Only now they are holding hands with the IDIC enfolded between them. It speaks volumes. How much they have overcome and how much Enterprise has overcome. That to me is how I want to remember Enterprise's finale. Not a TNG episode addition.

Derek 05-20-2005 08:20 PM

Okay, I think I'm ready to post my thoughts on TATV. I still haven't read an extermely positive review. Maybe they don't exist.

First off, I don't care that Trip died. I don't care if all the characters survive, or if one dies, or if the ship explodes just as it's about to do that final warp off into the sunset (though I would've laughed at that). Why don't I care? Because it's the finale, it's over. It's not like the show was going to continue and so we'd miss that person's presence in the future. This attitude also basically characterizes my view of Wesley's death on Angel's finale. Yes, both deaths were unnecessary in one sense, but, hey, why not?

Secondly, since I'm not a shipper, I don't care that Trip and T'Pol didn't stay together. To some extent, I could really see the baby thing being part of their breakup. It becomes harder for them to be intimate because they can't forget the baby (yes, the baby was only around for two episodes, but it's obvious both parents were very attached to her). Things become uncomfortable and awkward, so they become more distant until they're relationship reverts to being friends and coworkers.

Third, I'm not concerned with the concept of Riker and Troi being in the finale. In fact, I kind of liked the retrospective aspect. Like Zeke, I felt a B5 connection, but my thoughts fell much more on "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars", which was the fourth season finale which did a look back at the impact of Babylon 5 from 100, 500, 1,000, and 1,000,000 years in the future. To some extent, I might have appreciated it if TATV had been more like TDoFS, having multiple future perspectives, and letting one part be Riker's subplot. Oh well.

My delay in coming up with an opinion of this episode came from my failure to classify it. Normally when I watch an ENT episode I try to evaluate both on the basis of the episode's own story and also how the episode fits into the larger continuity of the season, the series, and all Trek. Thus, "Regeneration" is a very good episode viewed independently, but it falls apart when looking at the larger Trek continuity.

However, this episode mingled those two categories a LOT. I spent probably half the episode trying to make up my mind if I was watching an ENT episode with TNG elements or a TNG episode with ENT elements. I'm still not clear on what it was, though I lean toward the latter. So not knowing how to classify it, I wasn't sure if I should view it within the context of ENT S4, TNG S7, both, or neither.

I think it would've been nice to see people promoted or in different roles or maybe not even on board anymore. Even though TMP kept Scotty, Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov in their normal positions, it still had Kirk, Spock, and McCoy in different places than we left them.

As for the episode overall, I'm pretty okay with it, but I'm not sure how much I like it as a series finale. As has been pointed out, the focus wasn't really on the crew as a whole, their evolution over the years, and the resolution of the storylines created (things I would expect in a series finale). Instead it was about Trip, Riker, and the birth of the Federation, in that order. And it seems like it wouldn't have take too much to shift the focus on to the other things as well.

So in conclusion: It's not the travesty everyone seems to make it out to be, but it's not the best thing ever either.

Draknek 05-20-2005 10:29 PM

Quote:

This attitude also basically characterizes my view of Wesley's death on Angel's finale.
GAH! (I suppose I really should have got round to watching S5 by now, though)

I wouldn't have a problem with Trip's death if it hadn't felt like someone had gone "okay, let's kill Trip". It wasn't well-handled at all. It's hard to even say it served a purpose in the plot, because the whole thing felt so pointless.

I'm looking forward to Zeke's article, because I really want to know how he can try to defend this.

Kira 05-21-2005 01:08 AM

I wouldn't have been so disgusted with Trip's death if it hadn't felt like someone had gone "Okay, our finale needs punch. Who can we kill off?"

persianmouse 05-21-2005 01:12 AM

Maybe the Beebs thought we would like the arbitrary death of the most popular character? Seems reasonable to me.

Zeke 05-21-2005 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kira
Quote:

On second thought, it doesn't matter when -- you've still missed some great episodes. I love Keckler, but she's not the best gauge of episode quality for people like us.
Actually... yeah, she's a pretty good gauge for me, as is most of TWoP.

I like many things about TWoP, but they made a dangerous mistake when they started thinking of themselves as serious reviewers, and we're dangerously mistaken to buy it. At first the point of TWoP was to recap with hatred (which is sort of what we do, but it's all in fun here). But look at them now -- some shows get recappers who hate their guts, but others, like VM (taking your word for it), get recappers who take them seriously. The result is that fans of a show like VM can now point to TWoP -- basically a joke site -- as evidence that their show is high art and everything else is crap. TWoP is great for writing fivers or catching up on an episode you missed, but it's not remotely reliable as critical commentary.

Besides, they pay people to recount what happens on reality shows. I don't think even making reality shows is worth money.

Quote:

I wouldn't have been so disgusted with Trip's death if it hadn't felt like someone had gone "Okay, our finale needs punch. Who can we kill off?"
Everything's symbolic. Trip represents the Star Trek spirit at its core -- the sheer joy of exploration. The official trimmings like Archer's speech are remembered, but it's people like Trip that matter, and centuries later it's he that Riker learns from. What he represents will never die, which is why we get a scene with Trip alive so soon after his death scene. And now I'm really stealing material from my article.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek
First off, I don't care that Trip died. I don't care if all the characters survive, or if one dies, or if the ship explodes just as it's about to do that final warp off into the sunset (though I would've laughed at that). Why don't I care? Because it's the finale, it's over.

I disagree here because the end of one story about a group of characters is not the end of all stories about those characters, even if Paramount never returns to them. Trip's and Wesley's deaths place a limit on anything that can be done with them in the future. When there's a greater purpose that outweighs that, I can get behind killing an interesting character, but not when it's gratuitous. Kira's comment on Trip's death is exactly how I felt, and still feel, about Wesley's. (Is there some reason he couldn't have survived until the "they all die" ending at least?)

Ginga 05-21-2005 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kira
And hey, it could be worse: they could have given it the Friday Slot of Doom as they did for Enterprise.

And Third Watch. Although an hour later Friday Slot of Doom, but obviously it was a Friday Slot of Doom. Yeeeeep.

MaverickZer0 05-21-2005 08:58 AM

Yeah, the 'let's just kill someone for the heck of it' feeling grabbed me too. And I read evay's article and pretty much agreed with all of it.

It felt like a TNG episode. And I've never liked TNG. I've never liked Riker. I tolerated Troi on Voyager in small doses because it was Voyager. But I think that's another reason I hated it.

I don't know. If it was a coverup I could deal with it. Then the message would be 'Starfleet can't do coverups.'

Also, I think we gypped out of the speech. Archer isn't good at speechifying, but since Trip died, we could've at least gotten something.

Did anything not piss me off about the episode? Um....the one Trip/Malcolm scene. And yeah. That's it.

Gah. I don't want to think about it anymore. It's like they said 'okay, we know the fans love the show. This is the last episode they're ever going to get. Let's make them hate it as much as possible.'

persianmouse 05-21-2005 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaverickZer0
Gah. I don't want to think about it anymore. It's like they said 'okay, we know the fans love the show. This is the last episode they're ever going to get. Let's make them hate it as much as possible.'

Haha! You know I've been thinking about that Valentine comment they made awhile ago. After watching this episode, good intentions or not, I had no idea what they could be thinking...or smoking for that matter. Valentine? Really?

But then it occured to me; They know how much Trek fans love to bitch about every tiny little thing, endlessly. And so they gave us an episode we can bitch about until the end of time. That's what they meant by 'Valentine', it wasn't crappy writing or a bad idea for a plot at all!

Kira 05-21-2005 06:59 PM

Quote:

The result is that fans of a show like VM can now point to TWoP -- basically a joke site -- as evidence that their show is high art and everything else is crap. TWoP is great for writing fivers or catching up on an episode you missed, but it's not remotely reliable as critical commentary.
I totally disagree. Sure, a lot of TWoP is snark, but it's fairly rare that I read a scathing recap and don't feel the show deserved it for lazy, anvillicious writing or some such thing. It's not the be all and end all as a measuring stick for television, certainly, but I do think that they have an appreciation for strong writing and television that's well thought-out and executed and when they start praising a show I pay attention.

evay 05-22-2005 12:27 PM

I have to go with Zeke on this one, although I admit my source is two years out of date. I loved TWoP for S1 ENT. As S2 ENT continued, Keckler got nastier and more vicious until by the end of the year I felt like I had to click the mouse with asbestos gloves. When she did a summer extra recap of a TOS episode and called Kirk filthy names three times on the first page, I said the hell with this, I'm outta here.

To me that's not appropriate snarking at bad writing, it's just seeing how extreme the bashing can go. Of course ENT had writing problems. But ENT also had some good material in the first two years, and Keckler refused to acknowledge it for the most part. And she constantly whomped on Trip for absolutely no reason. (I know she's converted now, but her ranting was unjustified regardless.)

Some people like nasty-funny. Some people like "Fear Factor" too. It's just not my style.


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