[color=#000000:post_uid0]I never read the thread when it was first posted, and it's since been deleted.

Well, this movie wasn't *quite* as bad as I thought it would be. Â It certainly wasn't as horrible as Insufficient, although it wasn't in the league of First Contact, either. Â I'l organise my thoughts by character.

Picard: Who was this guy? Â Although it was interesting to see the jovial, good natured best man at the wedding, the macho idiot driving the dune buggy around was a complete stranger. Â He must still be feeling the effects of the fountain of youth from the last move. Â Speaking of dune buggies, there were two words that were never mentioned while they were blowing up pre-warp aliens: Prime Directive.

Riker: Why does the tall man have a furry face? Â And when did the trouble and strife let him grow the beard back? Â By the way, the song you were trying to remember is Pop Goes The Weasel.

Data: He sings. Â Again. Â And then explodes. Â There are several hours of movie in between those two events.

Worf: Poor guy got used as comic relief, filling the Gimli Role. Â He still can't hit anything with a phaser. Â He should stick to martial arts; he's murder with a mek'leth or just his bare hands. Isn't he supposed to be the Federation ambassador to Cronos at this point? Â Why's he wearing Starfleet fatigues? Â I can understand him being at the wedding, but serving on the bridge? Â Possibly there's a scene which explains it that didn't make the Director's Cut. Â I have no idea which version I watched.

Geordi: He seems to have been relegated to Sensor Officer. Â He didn't spew any engineering-related technobabble at all; it was all about androids.

Troi: She actually did something useful. Â I think her current hairstyle is much more attractive than that horrible curly bun she was sporting around the fifth season. I find her hotter now at 40+ than I did when she was in her 30s.

Dr. Crusher: Was she even in this movie? She is beginning to show the effects of age.

Wes: Poor old Wil got jerked around by Berman regarding whether his scene was going to be included. Â Wil never did tell me how Wes appeared at the wedding.

Janeway: *Admiral* Janeway? Â They promoted her over Picard? Â Great Bird, why?

Shinzon and the Remans: Interesting character, although his dramatic scenes with Picard tended to be one-note themes, saying the same thing over and over and over again. Â "You're me!" Â "No, you're me." Â "Be nice!" Â "Be evil!" Â Also, I don't think any Trek fan expected the other Romulan homeworld to be inhabited by a slave race of non-Romulans. Â It suppose the Remans could be a race the proto-Romulans conquered when they settled the system after leaving Vulcan, but all references to "the twin homeworlds" made it seem that both were populated by the same race.

Then again, maybe it was all clever Romulan disinformation.

They never adequately explained just *how* the Romulans got Picard's DNA, when they got it, how old Shinzon is, why the Romulans cared about a relatively minor starship captain who'd had his previous command shot out from under him, and just where in the hell they found Dr. Soong's protoprototype android and why nobody ever mentioned it before, Dr. S. included.

Space battle: I think this movie contained the first-ever references to ventral and dorsal shields. Â It was nice to finally see a space battle fought in three-dimensional space, rather than a two-dimensional plane with stars. Â One wonders, though, why the Reman ships had Earth names like Scimitar and Scorpion. Â Must be the Universal Translator.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]The bulk of your questions could be answered by this fake quote from Berman and Braga:

[i:post_uid0]"Con-tin-yu-wi-dy? What's that?"
"Continuity is futile."[/i:post_uid0][/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]B4 was cool. :D[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Killing off a major character while replacing him with a very similar character played by the same actor kind of lacks the emotional resonance of actually killing off the actual character entirely.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Are we expecting any more TNG movies?[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Nan: This is the second time I've heard you blame B&B for what you didn't like about Nemesis, and it doesn't make any more sense this time. Braga wasn't even involved; Berman was the producer, but not the writer. And not very many of Sa'ar's comments had to do with continuity, either.

As for Wheaton getting "jerked around by Berman," that's not how his blog told it....[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]As for Wheaton getting "jerked around by Berman," that's not how his blog told it....[/quote:post_uid0]

My memory has a few bad sectors. This is what I'm remembering (December 9th, second entry "Sadtimes," language warning).

This is probably what Zeke's referring to (August 14th, no bad language).[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Ouch. I hadn't read the post you linked there, and now that I've seen it, I feel really bad for WW. I don't think this was any kind of direct malice on Berman's part (how many executive producers write up the invite lists themselves?), but he was at the very least careless in not checking that Wheaton would be invited after assuring him he would be. Objection withdrawn. (This time. :D)[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Actually, I wasn't mentioning Braga because of Nemesis, but recent Trek in general. Berman, however, being the exec, also tends not to mind "fudging" things.

I'm not on the Braga-bashing wagon, just noting specifics in what I was hoping was a humourous fashion. Apparently not as humourous as I had hoped.

I suppose I could have made comments about the "scientific advisor", but that's already been done by one of the former staff on the show.

And I have forgotten the rules of film hierarchy, but the executive producer is the one who naysays or okays the script, at least in television (which is where the complaint is directed). Plus, "producer" is often used as a title for someone who is just a senior writer.

Justification-o-meter rating for YABBesque comment: 50/100, or "whiny fan girl."[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"]Also, I don't think any Trek fan expected the other Romulan homeworld to be inhabited by a slave race of non-Romulans. Â It suppose the Remans could be a race the proto-Romulans conquered when they settled the system after leaving Vulcan, but all references to "the twin homeworlds" made it seem that both were populated by the same race.

Then again, maybe it was all clever Romulan disinformation.[/quote:post_uid0]

I think that the Remans [i:post_uid0]are[/i:post_uid0] Romulans, with warped appearances from living in such a harsh environment. Look at Shinzon; he looks [i:post_uid0]way[/i:post_uid0] different from Picard and he's only lived on Remus a few decades, not the hundreds of years the Remans (or their ancestors) probably have.

I don't have any evidence to support this theory (besides the Remans' pointed ears), but I haven't seen anything to the contrary either.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Tate - although you make a valid point, I doubt evolution, especially on such a magnitude would have taken place in such short of time. Although Shinzon did change, that was an individual change and not a mutation on the genetic level.

Unfortunatly, I think the movie refers to them as an offshoot race.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Such short a time? As far as I know, they've lived there for centuries. The people on Terra Nova lived there for less time, but they mutated a lot in that time. That was because of the so-called "Poison Rain", but something like that might have happened to the Remans as well.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Hmm, true - but then again, I'm a hardcore nitpicker at heart ;)

Trek has constantly bended the rules of science. Why? It's a show, and entertaining :) So I usually keep the nitpicks to myself :)[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]The main problem with the movie I thought, was simply how boring it was.

Jeez, I would have fallen asleep if I hadn't cared about the franchise enough to watch it. Up to the crash (and no, it doesn't take those to make me interested in a movie), it was boring. And the crash was simply pretty and mildly intense (at least, moreso than the rest of the flick).

It should have been smarter and more original. If it had stepped a foot into new territory, perhaps it might have succeded better. But as it is now, it's a poor remake of a movie which worked for reasons Baird (sp?) and Logan didn't factor in at all.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]to the crash (and no, it doesn't take those to make me interested in a movie), it was boring.[/quote:post_uid0]

I want to know how Shinzon managed to extricate his ship from the Enterprise instead of simply dragging it along. Physics takes a holiday.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Physics has an uncanny way of taking holidays in films and TV.

I thought it was boring too, the plot was thin, and as much as they attempted to - the character development was lacking. They grounded themselves in Star Trek lore, and didn't take the time to re-establish the characters, or just establish them. Oh well.[/color:post_uid0]

[quote:post_uid0="Nan"][color=#000000:post_uid0]Actually, I wasn't mentioning Braga because of Nemesis, but recent Trek in general.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]My mistake -- I think it's understandable, though, since you said that "quote" answered the bulk of Sa'ar's questions.

[quote:post_uid0]Berman, however, being the exec, also tends not to mind "fudging" things.[/quote:post_uid0]

We probably shouldn't get into the [i:post_uid0]Enterprise[/i:post_uid0] continuity debate. Could get messy. ;)

[quote:post_uid0]I suppose I could have made comments about the "scientific advisor", but that's already been done by one of the former staff on the show.[/quote:post_uid0]

What scares me is that one of the current staff on the show used to [i:post_uid0]be[/i:post_uid0] science advisor -- a title that should have been revoked the moment he submitted "Demon."

[quote:post_uid0]And I have forgotten the rules of film hierarchy, but the executive producer is the one who naysays or okays the script, at least in television (which is where the complaint is directed). Plus, "producer" is often used as a title for someone who is just a senior writer.[/quote:post_uid0]

Oh, I'm not saying RB has no responsibility for script problems. I just find it odd that almost no one seems to give Logan any responsibility for them.

Sorry to be so harsh with you, Nan -- you were just the one who happened to hit one of my Trek hot buttons this time. And to prove I'm not a humourless basher-basher, let it be known far and wide that I found this Trek BBS post hilarious.

YABB?[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Just to say something good about Nemesis, I liked the way the relationships were more like I remembered them from the series. It was nice to actually see Data and Geordi talk to each other. (Did they even do that once in FC or INS?)[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Does it count if only Data talks? "Hello, Geordi. I seem to be missing several memory engrams. ...There they are."

By the way, I [i:post_uid0]loved[/i:post_uid0] ST:N, so no one else who did need feel alone.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]And to prove I'm not a humourless basher-basher,[/quote:post_uid0]

Zeke? Humourless?[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"]I want to know how Shinzon managed to extricate his ship from the Enterprise instead of simply dragging it along.[/quote:post_uid0]
He just backed up, possibly angling down-and-back a little. The [i:post_uid0]Enterprise[/i:post_uid0] hadn't "hooked" into Shinzon's ship any more than an ax hooks into a tree. Right? :S


I thought the movie was passable. Patrick Stewart seemed a little, well, "off" at the reception. And there were some definite plot holes and the like, which I may have already mentioned here. The thing that bugged me the most, I think, was the [i:post_uid0]Enterprise[/i:post_uid0]'s lack of action in the nebula. It just doodled along while being attacked, and did almost no fighting back and precious little in the way of even [i:post_uid0]attempting[/i:post_uid0] to evade incoming fire. I realize the warp drive and all was knocked askew by the first shots (how 'bout them shields? They make the Rams' defense look good :eyeroll:), but they didn't even try. And later on, when the bridge gets wrecked, everyone just stands around, unconcerned about another hull breach. Isn't that one of the things that the battle bridge is good for? They certainly had the time to shift their operations there.

Here's a major reason why I liked this movie a lot more than others did: I shuddered inwardly a little every time Picard and Shinzon got into a discussion because I dreaded the prospect of hearing a great deal of corniness come out of the TV. But for the most part, I think they pulled those scenes off very well! They should probably have played up those scenes more than they did. They could have gone deeper into the subject of "would Picard have acted as Shinzon did", for example. I don't expect a definitive answer to that question--I'd prefer that they didn't arrive at a facile answer--but that was a major theme, and as such should have gotten more screen time than it did. There were comments and questions I expected to hear from both of the two men that I didn't; those might have been included. They could have cut out some of the other stuff, like Troi's interaction with the Reman guy, to make room for that.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]He just backed up, possibly angling down-and-back a little. The Enterprise hadn't "hooked" into Shinzon's ship any more than an ax hooks into a tree. Right?[/quote:post_uid0]

In order to separate the two ships, there needed to be a force acting on the Enterprise in the opposite direction of the Scimitar's direction of travel. Given the amount of damage visible when the two ships finally separated, I'm certain that they were significantly intermingled. They were sitting in space; what was pulling on the Enterprise? Did someone throw out a space anchor? (Just randomised, undirected sarcasm, not meant to be aimed at you, NAH)[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Space anchors work by hooking into the surrounding space air.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]No offense taken, Sa'ar. :) I'm puzzled by your logic, though. How is the Scimitar designed to get around normally? It surely wasn't pushing against a handy ship for the whole trip to the nebula? ;) I think it would be using thrusters or an impulse engine for sublight travel as circumstances dictate, neither of which require a nearby ship to push against. And I really don't recall the intricacies of the scene that well, but I don't think that anything was shown that implied that the Scimitar had snagged anything major on the Enterprise (or vice versa). Maybe static cling would hold them together ([b:post_uid0]Panicked Helmsman:[/b:post_uid0] Aaah! Shinzon, I can't shake 'em! [b:post_uid0]Shinzon:[/b:post_uid0] [insert endorsement for an anti-cling fabric softener here] :smile:), but I don't know what else would. Other than the Enterprise continuing to push forward, but there are several ways to get around that. Suddenly changing direction or converting one's tractor beams into repulsors, for example.



Those space anchors are nice, but they can cause trouble. Archer keeps having nightmares in which the Enterprise's anchor doesn't catch firmly and the ship keeps going, with the anchor ripping out a strip of space atmosphere from Pluto clear to Mars.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]How is the Scimitar designed to get around normally? It surely wasn't pushing against a handy ship for the whole trip to the nebula? [/quote:post_uid0]

That wasn't what I was getting at. If you try to pull two things apart by holding them in midair and only pulling on one of them, you won't have much success. Unless Picard ordered full reverse, this above scenario is akin to what Shinzon tried. An impact like what we witnessed should have left the ships firmly wedged together.

All this physics is making my head hurt. *goes back to his chemistry*[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Zeke"]My mistake -- I think it's understandable, though, since you said that "quote" answered the bulk of Sa'ar's questions.[/quote:post_uid0]
I can see what you mean. I was generally referring to the two's dubious history with the C-word, and Berman's in particular, since he's the guy before the network when it comes top the decision-making hierarchy. Though, to be fair, Trek has never been all that careful about continuity.

[quote:post_uid0]We probably shouldn't get into the [i:post_uid0]Enterprise[/i:post_uid0] continuity debate. Â Could get messy. ;)[/quote:post_uid0]
It bothers me when the PTBs talk about how they're "science fiction," yet make stupid errors a high school student could catch. And maul continuity. Granted, certain differences can be expected, there being an unforseen (in the 60s) boom in tech development, etc.

[quote:post_uid0]What scares me is that one of the current staff on the show used to [i:post_uid0]be[/i:post_uid0] science advisor -- a title that should have been revoked the moment he submitted "Demon."[/quote:post_uid0]
AGHK! Do not speak its naaaaame! ;) Ouch, who was that? It wasn't Andre Bormanis, was it?

[quote:post_uid0]Oh, I'm not saying RB has no responsibility for script problems. Â I just find it odd that almost no one seems to give Logan any responsibility for them.[/quote:post_uid0]
It's a little hard to blame Logan, since he's a "newb". Still... good lord. "Reman"? Gahh! Wasn't he part of some big, respected project?

Here's a question nobody can answer satisfactorily: even if Shinzon WAS a precise duplicate of Picard, why the frell would he have an English accent? Where is the logic?

[quote:post_uid0]Sorry to be so harsh with you, Nan -- you were just the one who happened to hit one of my Trek hot buttons this time. Â And to prove I'm not a humourless basher-basher, let it be known far and wide that I found this Trek BBS post hilarious.[/quote:post_uid0]
It's okay. It weirded me out a little, but I understand where you're coming from. It did sound like your typical B&B bash. When bashing, I try to have very specific reasons and not end up mouthing vague fan displeasure. Even if Braga is a big walking target.

Must..... RESIST!

[quote:post_uid0]YABB?[/quote:post_uid0]
[b:post_uid0]Y[/b:post_uid0]et
[b:post_uid0]A[/b:post_uid0]nother
[b:post_uid0]B[/b:post_uid0]raga (or [b:post_uid0]B[/b:post_uid0]erman)
[b:post_uid0]B[/b:post_uid0]ashing

Acronyms are fun. ;)[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Nan"]And maul continuity.[/quote:post_uid0]
And this is exactly [i:post_uid0]why[/i:post_uid0] we shouldn't get into the continuity debate. ;)

[quote:post_uid0]Ouch, who was that? It wasn't Andre Bormanis, was it?[/quote:post_uid0]

That's the guy. Â Interesting fact: he did both ENT episodes with "Crossing" in their titles.

[quote:post_uid0]It's a little hard to blame Logan, since he's a "newb".[/quote:post_uid0]

I don't see why it's hard to blame script problems on the guy who [i:post_uid0]wrote the script[/i:post_uid0].

[quote:post_uid0]Still... good lord. "Reman"? Gahh! Wasn't he part of some big, respected project?[/quote:post_uid0]

[i:post_uid0]Gladiator[/i:post_uid0]. Â I haven't seen it, but I hear it's good.

[quote:post_uid0]Here's a question nobody can answer satisfactorily: even if Shinzon WAS a precise duplicate of Picard, why the frell would he have an English accent?[/quote:post_uid0]

Yep, I read the strip. ;) Â That's what I meant by "second time" earlier.

[quote:post_uid0]It's okay. It weirded me out a little, but I understand where you're coming from.[/quote:post_uid0]

Still, sorry to weird you out. Â I guess I was even harsher than I thought.

[quote:post_uid0]Even if Braga is a big walking target.[/quote:post_uid0]

Well, yeah. Â Even I couldn't resist doing that one top ten list....[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Sa'ar Chasm"][quote:post_uid0]How is the Scimitar designed to get around normally? It surely wasn't pushing against a handy ship for the whole trip to the nebula? [/quote:post_uid0]

That wasn't what I was getting at. Â If you try to pull two things apart by holding them in midair and only pulling on one of them, you won't have much success. Â Unless Picard ordered full reverse, this above scenario is akin to what Shinzon tried. Â An impact like what we witnessed should have left the ships firmly wedged together.

All this physics is making my head hurt. Â *goes back to his chemistry*[/quote:post_uid0]
All right, I think I see what you mean. It's a fair observation. Maybe Shinzon ordered some of his henchmen to "get out and push". :D Which raises another question: Does the Romulan version of Starfleet have its own version of "redshirts"? :smile:[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Does now. Remans.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]Acronyms are fun.[/quote:post_uid0]

The immediate ancestor of YABB is YATI, which stands for "Yet Another Technical (or Treknical) Inconsistency (Inaccuracy)." This dates to the mid-90s at least, and possibly earlier.

[quote:post_uid0]It's a little hard to blame Logan, since he's a "newb". Still... good lord. "Reman"? [/quote:post_uid0]

"Remus" goes back to (t)OS (although it was called Romii on Spock's screen).[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="Zeke"]And this is exactly [i:post_uid0]why[/i:post_uid0] we shouldn't get into the continuity debate. ;)[/quote:post_uid0]
Heh heh heh.

[quote:post_uid0]That's the guy. Â Interesting fact: he did both ENT episodes with "Crossing" in their titles.[/quote:post_uid0]
Another interesting fact: a characte ronthe X-Files wa snamed after him. Season 8: "Via Negativa."

[quote:post_uid0]I don't see why it's hard to blame script problems on the guy who [i:post_uid0]wrote the script[/i:post_uid0].[/quote:post_uid0]
Yeah, but for a feature film there are almost ALWAYS more than one writer on the script.

For instance, the story credit goes to Brent Spiner, John Logan, and Rick Berman. That means they wer ethe ones who came up with the overall story but not the script.

The actual script was credited to Logan. However, Berman is listed as a producer, which means he probably co-wrote in addition to watching finances, etc. The exec producer was a dude named Marty Hornstein, who I'm not familiar with.

Hmmm... maybe THAT'S how the Reman thing slipped through. Although he WAS on Insurrection... and First Contact and Undiscovered Country. Hunh.

[quote:post_uid0][i:post_uid0]Gladiator[/i:post_uid0]. Â I haven't seen it, but I hear it's good.[/quote:post_uid0]
It was [i:post_uid0]okay[/i:post_uid0], good art design in segments, but overall... ehh. Didn't hold a candle to Crouching Tiger. Stupid Academy. [/rant]

[quote:post_uid0]Yep, I read the strip. ;) Â That's what I meant by "second time" earlier.[/quote:post_uid0]
Ahhhh... (this strip, for the uninitiated)

[quote:post_uid0]Still, sorry to weird you out. Â I guess I was even harsher than I thought.[/quote:post_uid0]
Probably not. I'm kind of sensitive.

[quote:post_uid0]Well, yeah. Â Even I couldn't resist doing that one top ten list....[/quote:post_uid0]
Hehehehehehe...[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]My Nemesis review, written a whiles back when I first watched it:

My Hysterical Nemesis Review


[quote:post_uid0="Michiel"]B4 was cool. :D[/quote:post_uid0]
B5 was cooler :D :D


I'm all for B&B bashing. Do we even need a reason?[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Out of curiousity, how would you have preferred Shinzon speak? With a nice, patriotic American accent? With a wacky Australian accent? In a different language?

When you come down to it, everyone speaks with an accent. You just don't consider your way of speaking an accent because it's normal to you.

In essence: Shinzon's accent doesn't matter.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Patriotic American would be meaningless to me, not being American. Australian is a variant of English.

I would have preferred something that sounded like he actually grew up speaking another language. The only reason he'd have an English accent was if the Romulans had made him emulate Picard's accent via speech therapy/training. They'd obviously given up on Shinzon since they sent him to work in a mine, so that's out as a possibility.

What was even the point of bothering with an English accent? A Romulan accent would have been better: Sirtis and Jurasik managed it fine with their alien characters.

In essence: it was a dumb gaffe.

No Vulcans on the writing staff, I guess.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0]A Romulan accent would have been better[/quote:post_uid0]
Actually, I think it should have been a Reman accent (although I don't know what that sounds like).
A cousin of my father's moved to the North just a couple of years ago, but she speaks with a perfect Northern accent already. Which proves accents tend to change quickly into the one you're completely surrounded by.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0][quote:post_uid0="taya17"]I'm all for B&B bashing. Do we even need a reason?[/quote:post_uid0]
[b:post_uid0][i:post_uid0][u:post_uid0]<h1>YES.</h1>[/u:post_uid0][/i:post_uid0][/b:post_uid0][/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I'd say he's right on that one.[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]But it's just so [i:post_uid0]EASY[/i:post_uid0] to make fun of Brinky and the Bermain :([/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]It saddens me how close you came to climbing out of the pit of basherdom, only to be knocked back in by a single episode whose consequences we don't even really know yet. (This has been your official Possibly-Accurate-But-Definitely-Pompous Comment for July 25, 2003.)[/color:post_uid0]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]*snerf*[/color:post_uid0]