The big huge problem with any sort of international agreement is that you've got to get everyone to agree to it, and everybody will want to change something. I'll state this again, categorically - the actual cost of taking effective preventative measures is far outweighed by the cost of the effects of global warming. Why it is that most people don't consider that to be sufficient justification? It's not an idealistic argument, it's a purely pragmatic one. And if it turns out that in forty or fifty years time, we've been overestimating the problem? It's still by far better to have done too much than to have not done enough.

Here's another question for everyone - when you think of global warming, what specifically does that make you think of? I'm interested to know how much of the issue people really see.

It used to be that I thought of the ice caps melting, but a few weeks ago that changed. Now, I live in Minnesota and we're known for extreme temperature variations, but over ninety (during the day) for an entire week? That hasn't happened before.

As a subphenomenon of that, we're also known for blizzards in "Minesodah" (p.s. I don't really talk like that) and we really haven't had those these last few years. We've had snow, but not entire weeks of it staying multiple feet deep.

This whole global warming bit is a subphenomenon of why I love Minnesota and will never move to Arizona or Florida, like all of those trecherous snowbirds who used to be my compatriots. Barring a major power outage or fuel shortage, you can always get warmer. Getting cooler is a harder proposition.

Myself as a red puddle in the middle of a desert, with the occasional piece of rubble poking out of the endless sands.

I think of the climate change currently sweeping BC, Canada.

For those of you who don't know, BC is currently infested with mountain pine beetles. Now, when I say BC, I mean... most of the province. Several hundred thousand square kilometers (it's like a square mile, but smaller). In some areas, there are so many beetles that if you stand very, very still in the woods, and listen, you can:

a) actually hear the sounds of chewing, because 10,000 beetles chewing actually makes some noise, and

b) watch sawdust fall like snow.

I have experienced both of these things. Now, people around here are saying "ECOLOGICAL DOOM! END OF THE WORLD!!!!" Forestry is a HEEE-YUUUGE part of the economy here, and beetle-kill trees can't be harvested, really. However, if you talk to anybody from the Ministry of Forests who has a degree, know what they'll say?

"Yup, we know. It's a climate shift, we've known since the 80's. Soon this will all be grasslands. It happens every few thousand years."

They've known. They've known for a LONG time, and it's a natural occurrence. However, that same ministry (now people with marketing and business degrees) are blaming global warming for the eventual death of BC industry, and raising as much panic as they can.

So you know what global warming makes me think of? The greatest scapegoat of all time.

Uh, a warning, MJ?

Multiple exclamation marks tend to make Zeke...have one of his 'little turns' ;)

I know, I only use them when I want to reinforce the stupidity of the person or group being referenced... cool, huh?!?!

Part of the problem with credibilty is that people hear things like that, and assume that the rest is a crock too. I think, in general, treating ecology as an ideology is entirely the wrong way to go about things - you might convince a few people, but the rest will just see the dogma and be put off by it. The pragmatic approch is by far the best approach if enough people are to be convinced that there really are sound reasons for thinking that sudden climate change really is something to be worried about.

Well, to be honest, this PARTICULAR dramatic climate change is not really affected by the weather. Other changes, like in Europe:

Spring coming 9 days earlier,
Summer ending 3 days later, and
Winters averaging 4 degrees colder,

are DIRECTLY linked to the reduction in the Atlantic Gulf Stream current. Warm water, and thus warm air, is not making it to Europe, and this means in the summer there is less convenient humidity and this results in lower pressure zones, sucking in hotter air from surrounding areas, and in Winter it just means less warm air outright. Now, there's a couple causes for the Atlantic Gulf Stream reduction, but a significant portion of it? Water use along the Carribbean, by Mexico and the United States. And do you think they'll stop? They NEED that water for irrigation... without it, billions of tons of food just don't get grown. But with it, in about ten years, Europe will be in serious trouble, and there's talk that if the current is shifted, it will be PERMANENT... and new ocean currents will form, and it's believed this will heat up the East Coast of the US and Canada, and bring warmer water up into the Canadian Arctic, and FUCK if THAT won't melt a little ice cap!

So, in short... goodbye, Earth! :)

How hot does it get down in Arizona these days, anyway? Has it been ninety-plus all summer, or what?

That's a lot of beetles. I've seen the insides of many good trees get sawdusted by insects, but even I haven't seen anything like that.

As a deviation, is there still oil in Alaska? Just wondering.

Ernesto happening along (sort of) has made me think - give it decade or two, and nobody will be able to live in Florida anymore. Quite apart from anything else, no bugger will insure them.